02-03-2004 11:25									#1
	Does RACE exist? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'm thinking that it doesnt. the use of skin color as a defining trait seems kinda arbitrary - i mean , why not use the color of eyes as a basis of race?

	02-03-2004 11:26									#2
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I think we define races by looking at many different genetic characteristics, and not only skin color. If there are no races for humans, then there are no races for dogs, horses, cats. etc.

	02-03-2004 11:27									#3
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yea, there arnt any races for dogs, just different breeds.

	02-03-2004 11:29									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia yea, there arnt any races for dogs, just different breeds.

Then you are moving the problem. There are breeds for humans.

	02-03-2004 11:30									#5
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and what defines those breeds?

	02-03-2004 11:35									#6
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the woman.

	02-03-2004 11:36									#7
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?

	02-03-2004 11:37									#8
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I think this' entirely a different subject. Correct me if I'm mistaken but isn't breeds (for dogs and cats) are actually sub-species?

If I'm right, 'race' is a different catergory or something like that. We're homo sapiens sapiens while in the past there have been other sub-species. For instance, homo sapiens neandertalensis or Neanderthals as they're commonly known.

What I'm trying to say is that we're all part of the same sub-species or 'breed' so 'race' and 'breed' can't be compared.

Either that or I just made a fool of myself

	02-03-2004 11:37									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia and what defines those breeds?

Well, just guessing, skin color, head shape. Even eye color- I don't think Asians have blue or green eyes.

If you compare Black and Asians, there may be breast size too.

	02-03-2004 11:39									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DataAeolus I think this' entirely a different subject. Correct me if I'm mistaken but isn't breeds (for dogs and cats) are actually sub-species? If I'm right, 'race' is a different catergory or something like that. We're homo sapiens sapiens while in the past there have been other sub-species. For instance, homo sapiens neandertalensis or Neanderthals as they're commonly known.

Actually, I think the sapiens/Neanderthal union was fertile. What it can mean for races or breeds, I don't know.

	02-03-2004 11:39									#11
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Whoops sorry. Thought I read what defines who breeds?

	02-03-2004 11:40									#12
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physical attributes vary greatly across the gamete of the human population, and tend to cluster in areas, which creates a perception of "races" of people.

to deny it's existance is retarded.

	02-03-2004 11:59									#13
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i think skin color exists. i just dont see why we race has to be defiend as a difference in skin color. why not choose eye color?

	02-03-2004 12:04									#14
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It's not just based on skin color. My skin isn't that different from some of the Japanese people I see around, but my brown hair and blue eyes seperate me into another race.

	02-03-2004 13:01									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia i think skin color exists. i just dont see why we race has to be defiend as a difference in skin color. why not choose eye color?

it's not just skin color, it's a complte set of physical features. asian people are generally shorter than whites/africans. they have a different skin color. their hair grows differently. their facial features are different than other races (the obvious one is eye structure, but there are many more).

all of that is GENERALLY speaking. of course there are exceptions to the rule.

and there are differences between the asian races themselves. i have a friend (who is chinese-american, born here) who can tell if a person is Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, et al, and I bet many asian people can do that too. in fact, i'm getting pretty good at it myself.

you can't get really into it without falling prey to people yelling about sterotypes. well, the truth is those sterotypes exist because people (at one point in time) believed the majority of those people had those traits.

eye colors can vary in region a lor more than skin colors, especially in Europe.

	02-03-2004 13:15									#16
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Where does one delineate the boundaries of race? Race is a relative measure, one can be more white, or brown, or yellow when compared to someone else, yet there can be no one who is the proper white, or brown or black or yellow.

	02-03-2004 14:47									#17
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Well yes race exists. The real question is does it matter.

	02-03-2004 14:57									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I think we define races by looking at many different genetic characteristics, and not only skin color. If there are no races for humans, then there are no races for dogs, horses, cats. etc.

Define what differentiates "race."

	02-03-2004 14:59									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX it's not just skin color, it's a complte set of physical features.

So? There's a continuous spectrum spanning from end to end. The division of "race" is simply arbitrary.

	02-03-2004 15:05									#20
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race exists, but who cares?

	02-03-2004 15:21									#21
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Yep. Race exists.

Itīs mainly physical appearance, but not only.
For example the Japanese are known to have a genetically caused lack of ADH (Alcohol Dehydrogenase) which means that they are more likely that they get a hangover if they drink Alcohol.

There are also Indios which live in great heights and have much more hemoglibine to make up for the lack of oxygene. But in this case I donīt know if this is genetically fixated or just the result of being raised from earliest childhood in this environment.

	02-03-2004 15:36									#22
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Space05us has it right... who cares?

	02-03-2004 15:36									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger So? There's a continuous spectrum spanning from end to end. The division of "race" is simply arbitrary.

Yes, the divisions are arbitrary. But a lot of divisions are arbitrary. I could say that there are no wealthy people, because whatever divides upper and middle class is an arbitrary division, if I'm allowed to use that logic.

	02-03-2004 15:39									#24
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Categorizing human beings as belonging to one race or another is a perfectly sensible thing to do. But it gets associated with a bunch of unattractive things such as xenophobia, racial prejudice and fascist super-race ideas. So that "racism" and "racist" are perjorative terms.

It is natural to break larger groups down into smaller categories. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. It is done in the search for understanding and to facilitate discussion and the exchange of ideas. The existence of unpleasant stuff like racial prejudice is not a reason to abandon categories.

For some reason the process whereby neutral language becoming loaded with pejorative overtones is particularly common in those areas where societies have been seeking to foster equality. Thus the word "discriminate" is a wholly neutral, and useful, word. It describes the process of distinguishing between different things. But it is now rather awkward to use the word in that way. Because it is so closely associated with adverse discrimination on those specific grounds which various societies consider damaging - sex, race and (more recently) state of health, age, sexual orientation and religion. It has become a loaded word, loaded with negative associations.

	02-03-2004 15:46									#25
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Even if there's no rational basis for defining the boundaries of a certain race society, in practice, does create and maintain racial categories. We can't solve the problem of discrimination between them by ignoring their existence!

	02-03-2004 15:50									#26
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there are different features, but it doesn't really matter.

	02-03-2004 15:54									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Yes, the divisions are arbitrary. But a lot of divisions are arbitrary. I could say that there are no wealthy people, because whatever divides upper and middle class is an arbitrary division, if I'm allowed to use that logic.

Not so. Wealth makes material difference in a society, 'race" does not.

	02-03-2004 16:00									#28
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East Street:

You are right that science will often make attempts to categorise information, in models, but the one feature in common with all models, is that they simplify the subject matter. One must never confuse the model with reality.

	02-03-2004 16:01									#29
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Obviously this post is in reply to UR, but Ben got a reply off in between our posts.

Well actually, it kinda does, what with white people being richer than black people and all, but I assume that wasn't what you meant.

How about this then? There are no colors. Whatever division you choose between red and orange is arbitrary, and how come you don't allow for reddish orange, and if you do, how come you don't allow for reddish orange erring more on the red side, etc.

	02-03-2004 16:04									#30
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Racism could be something which diminishes with time if the humans continue to survive.

Thatīs because (according to some predictions of Scientists) the Races will mix more and more, as any geographic (and also cultural) Boundaries which more or less separated the Races in the past will play a much smaller role in the future.
So that at one point, a few hundred years in the future, there might just be one Race with slightly darker skin than that of the average european or american "White"