02-03-2004 16:58									#1
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I was sitting in my Poltical Science tutorial today (Wealth and World Politics) and was amazed at how much of it is actually in Civ3... at a basic level. Seems like i'm all set up for my POLS course with Civ3

Well notice how I said basic level. Thats the thing. I wish that the diplomacy in Civ3 was so much more advanced than it is now. I've got a few improvements I think are needed. For starters just expanding the options would be good. The basics that should be included are things like third party peace deals and the such like that. You should be able to threaten the AI more to. Like whatever happened to the "our words are backed with nuclear weapons" threat? Also wouldn't it be great if you could say things like:
"Come now persia, don't be daft. I have a military force three times your size, three times the tech level and my economic centre and infastructure is vastly superior to yours. All I ask for is a simple luxury, and I'm even offering you gpt for it too. Your choice buddy"
While I'm on it. I'd also like as a function that becomes available with embassies the ability to get a complete report made on a certain opposing state. For example click an option within the espionage menu saying "Gather comprehensive report on State" and it'll cost you so much gold to do. This report would tell you things from the current form of government, general happiness of the nation, general level of tech, general level of infastructure and economic stregth, level of military strength compared to you and general tech level of the military (eg mostly spearmen and swordsmen or pikemen and tanks with a spattering of infantry). This would be handy in giving you that little bit more information about a potential enemy or ally. For example if you get a report on a nation you are thinking of attacking and realise that they are having unhappiness problems and that they are democratically governed you decide to attack hoping that war weariness occurs quickly and effects them that much more because they are already suffering unhappiness.

Well thats it for now, I had more ideas earlier but can't remember them at the moment. Hope what I wrote makes sense to. If it doesn't ask, i'll try to clarify. I'll also post somemore if I think of them. Also add your ideas and do you agree that the Diplomacy in Civ3 is vastly lacking?

	02-03-2004 19:15									#2
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Yes, the diplomacy aspect in Civ3 could have been better, especially because we had a great (not perfect, though) diplomacy system in SMAC.

I love the option you had in SMAC of framing another faction for your own espionage actions. Great tool to manipulate the political machinations under the hood.

I think that your idea about a complete report on an enemy nation is interesting, but I also think that it should be dependent on how much your spying abilities were developed or not. Getting this kind of complete report by the means of an embassy is too powerful in my opinion, especially considering that, in Real Life, most nations hide some kind of strategic information, which constitutes the "denied data" that must be obtained by means of espionage.

	02-03-2004 21:32									#3
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I would vote for removing Dip from the game.

	03-03-2004 03:24									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Alex Yes, the diplomacy aspect in Civ3 could have been better, especially because we had a great (not perfect, though) diplomacy system in SMAC.

Yes, the diplomacy in SMAC is much better than in CIV3, actually useful. Lack of an effective diplomacy engine in CIV3 has caused me to abandon some games.

	03-03-2004 04:28									#5
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At the very least, there should be a non-aggression agreement in the game, not just mutual protection. And a civ shouldn't just be able, for the most part, to go from peace to war. There should be a few steps between in most cases, such as expelling your diplomats, cancelling trade agreements etc.

	03-03-2004 06:23									#6
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vxma1 thats a bit extreme isn't it? Having diplomacy removed totally??

	03-03-2004 08:00									#7
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Guess he's a such warmonger he just don't need diplomancy

	03-03-2004 09:33									#8
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Not having played SMAC, it is my understanding that SMAC has a more complex Diplomacy but a less competent AI in the sense of the AI just doesn't know how to use a lot of the features.

If that is the case, then i'd go for the Civ3 system, where its simplicity allows for the AI to be programmed to learn human exploits and know all the features.

Do I want a more complex diplo system? yes. I was very very disappointed when I learned locked alliances was something you set in a scenario and not a new diplomacy option. But thinking about it, had it been a new diplomacy option, it might have required a new re-write of a large chunk of the AI diplo code to allow the AI to be able to cope with it. And if the AI can't use it but the human can? no thanks.

	03-03-2004 11:28									#9
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Yeah I'm definitely holding out for the days of almost pure AI (ie can think for itself). In those days we will see a AI that can compete on par with a human player. It'll be a day of glorious celebration with people crowding the streets getting drunk celebrating the birth of pure AI. Well not quite but you get my drift.

In my opinion diplomacy is the only thing lacking in Civ. Everything else is fine by me.

	03-03-2004 12:11									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho vxma1 thats a bit extreme isn't it? Having diplomacy removed totally??

I find it boring and annoying. Contactng civs and bouncing around with the advisor for a deal.

I just don't bother with it. I do not make many trades and usually go out of my way to not be nice.
My favorite response it "not a chance". At emperor I do not need their help and above it they don't want to give it much anyway.

Not a true warmonger, notg a true builder. Although I prefer to build my empire and structures more than troops.

That is why I love playing repulsive in Moo2. No trades no deals no contacts. When I wants something from the AI I take it. If they want somethign from me they have to take it.

	03-03-2004 12:11									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Yeah I'm definitely holding out for the days of almost pure AI (ie can think for itself). In those days we will see a AI that can compete on par with a human player. It'll be a day of glorious celebration with people crowding the streets getting drunk celebrating the birth of pure AI. Well not quite but you get my drift. .

Don't forget Skynet taking us over and the world becoming infested with terminators.

	03-03-2004 12:21									#12
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Sci-fi books/movies have already written the future.. we're just heading towards it now.

Wow vxma1 thats pretty hard line. I thought I was usually a pretty isolationist player. Obviously I have nothing on you. Am I right in assuming you have a large military?

	03-03-2004 12:35									#13
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I definately try to take what I need. it's better to control something than to trade for something, but i place my weights differently.

I play really with an eye on balance of power, advancing my interests through friendly contacts and exploiting openenings by helping one side over the other if I have a goal to contain someone.

It's always better to have two AI clobber each other while I build than be a party in a war that I'm not prepared to fight anyways. This probably comes in part because I'm more of a builder and under most circumstances, my early military is not equipped for massive sustained long-term conquests. There's too much infrastructure I want to build.

That said, there's obviously no one right way to play a Civ3 game. I like to use diplomacy more for its implicit effects than its explicit one. An ROP is just an ROP, but one signed with a Civ that is at war with a more powerful civ can shift the balance of power by allowing one Civ free reign over my territory and thus counterattack effectively while the other civ plod along.

It's me, but I like stuff like that.

P.S. in almost every game, I've always picked one Civ that I partner up with. We never go to war and they are often, not real vassals as in a really weak civ. but more of a middle power. On difficulty levels (Emperor, Monarch ) which I play most often, having a partner civ like that around ensures that there's always someone who is behind me and I can trade techs to as well as the frequent bonus of them going down a different tech path and allowing me more options in trades.

It's an arguable benefit I suppose as most people can trade techs around with or without this partner. But a partnership with me usually entails a strong rich middle power, which is much more secure than some other AI civ that could be wiped out anytime or one that may not have the cash to pay for it.

	03-03-2004 14:12									#14
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I have to agree that diplomacy is fairly pointless in Civ III. Basically it features in the following ways:

- all the AI civs have mutual protection pacts, so that sooner or later a cascade of wars start;
- if you want a luxury (say furs), you have to offer wine, dyes and incense otherwise the AI is insulted;
- techs and world maps are not traded for luxuries (if I even offer one as part of the deal the AI is insulted);
- if you have a tech the AI wants then most deals that do not involve that tech will fail.

Most deals run along these lines:

Me:"What do you want for furs?"
AI:" Wines, dyes, incense, world map."

Me:"What will you give for wines?"
AI:"2 gold per turn."

Somewhat pointless.

I'm sure this has been covered before, but It happened to me last night (again) and I felt a need to complain about it.

	03-03-2004 18:13									#15
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As you probably know, the reason for this is simple: the AI bases its demands on how many happy faces the luxury you seek will provide you. Thus, if you already have 3-4 luxuries and have a large number of marketplaces, a single luxury can be worth several happy citizens. Because you will benefit much more than they will in a one-for-one trade, the price they demand is high.

If you add into the equation the fact that humans use the luxury slider while the AI doesn't, that single luxury you get from them may also enable you to reduce your luxury budget, thus allowing you to up your research as well.

Finally, so what if they want a 3-for-1 deal? If you have surplus luxuries, they're not doing you any good just sitting there. The benefit you get from that extra luxury is more than worth propping up the AI.

In short, I never understood why people think a 1-for-1 deal is "fair," when it demonstrably is not. In most cases, with a well-developed human empire, even 3-for-1 is very beneficial to the human.

	03-03-2004 18:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by kailhun I have to agree that diplomacy is fairly pointless in Civ III. Basically it features in the following ways: - all the AI civs have mutual protection pacts, so that sooner or later a cascade of wars start; - if you want a luxury (say furs), you have to offer wine, dyes and incense otherwise the AI is insulted; - techs and world maps are not traded for luxuries (if I even offer one as part of the deal the AI is insulted); - if you have a tech the AI wants then most deals that do not involve that tech will fail. Most deals run along these lines: Me:"What do you want for furs?" AI:" Wines, dyes, incense, world map." Me:"What will you give for wines?" AI:"2 gold per turn." Somewhat pointless. I'm sure this has been covered before, but It happened to me last night (again) and I felt a need to complain about it.

That's not diplomacy, that's trading. And as the poster below you noted, it's not pointless. Civ3 actually has a fairly sophisticated AI when it comes to trading. That is the result of several patches that removed human exploits and improved AI valuations. its not perfect, but its quite robust.

As for diplomacy being pointless, I have to disagree.

	03-03-2004 22:15									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Sci-fi books/movies have already written the future.. we're just heading towards it now. Wow vxma1 thats pretty hard line. I thought I was usually a pretty isolationist player. Obviously I have nothing on you. Am I right in assuming you have a large military?

Depends on the map and the level. I don't need a large military in the early part, unless at the highest levels.

Don't misunderstand, I have to pay a price for my lack of diplomacy. Loss revenue and some missed opportunities.

	04-03-2004 07:07									#18
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I thought that the AI got continously more and more pissed off at you if you didn't trade with them?

Thank you Tall Stranger, I've always wondered why the AI want so much.

kailhun I've never really had a problem with the AI just giving a couple of gold. I'm usually pretty happy with what the AI gives me when I ask them to put something on the table. Usually I can get the likes of 150gpt for a single tech.

One thing I can't understand though is the AI attachment to Fascism and Espionage. They won't trade these unless for bloody stupid prices, for examply a couple of luxuries and a modern age tech plus some gpt. Doesn't make sense to me, those techs aren't that great.

	04-03-2004 07:15									#19
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Espionage is quite obvious. Without espionage, you can't plant spies, and the military advisor w/ spies is one of my most used screen in the middle to late game. I have circumstantial evidence that the AI is 'more' aware of my military make up after they have espionage than before. This is purely conjecture here, as I need to play a debug game to test this theory further, but it does feel like the AI will actively engage in an arms race with its neighbours, and I suspect its because it too has spies in your capital and can actively see at all AI levels (leader, city, unit) what sort of units you have.

A standard retort here I suppose is to accuse the AI of cheating and bring evidence that the AI knows all your units anyways etc. etc. To that, all I can say is since the AI isn't human and Soren probably won't tell us how the AI sees the world, we don't really know what it knows and at which level. The declare war routine may be the only routine with access to your force data, and even then, it may only give the AI a defensive /unit count value and not the actual unit break down. Therefore, I think that if what Soren said initially (nearly 3 years ago) was true -- that the AI was designed to cheat as little as possible, then they will have to pay and plant plant spies and only then can they gain access to hard data about your military composition.

As for Fascism, this may have simply been an AI quirk. Or the AI simply sets a higher than normal price for it because it is assumed the AI will like to switch to this government and thus denying other AI players from getting it too cheaply. for us humans, with the AI to AI trade bonus, the price may simply exceed what we normally can offer then AI.

We have to try and get out of the mindset that the AI behaves in a certain way for the sake of the human player. It looks to me like a lot of the AI routines are applied without discrimination of whether its human or AI, and i suspect that trading valuations, aside from the AI trade bonus, is exactly the same for an AI as it is for a human.

Last edited by dexters on 04-03-2004 at 07:22

	04-03-2004 07:20									#20
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Ahhh righteo.. see I've never really used espionage at all. I only rarely play into the late game.

Yeah I agree with your last bit. It's just easier to assume that the AI is catering for you as you don't see the AI dealing with each other.

	04-03-2004 07:25									#21
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Flip, you're missing out Especially after C3C.

I love my Battleships and airforce.

	04-03-2004 07:30									#22
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Yeah I'm keep promising myself that I'll play to the end, I just never do. I always have these visions of large fleets controlling the waves and a superior air force, with a powerful economy to back it all up. I may start playing smaller maps so games don't take so long.

	04-03-2004 09:02									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Yeah I'm definitely holding out for the days of almost pure AI (ie can think for itself). In those days we will see a AI that can compete on par with a human player. It'll be a day of glorious celebration with people crowding the streets getting drunk celebrating the birth of pure AI. Well not quite but you get my drift. In my opinion diplomacy is the only thing lacking in Civ. Everything else is fine by me.

Wintermute?


However, IMHO I believe that 'AI's will never go beyond simply being programmed constructs that react differently given a certain set of conditions. The only thing I believe will expand is the number of variables it can react to and the number of reactions it will have available.

*Ahem* Please excuse my thread-jack, now please carry on. Nothing to see here.

	04-03-2004 09:19									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho I thought that the AI got continously more and more pissed off at you if you didn't trade with them?

They seemed to get mad regardless of what I do, so I don't worry about it.

No wars with anyone, just made contact with a civ on another landmass and they have no contact with anyone on yours.
They are annoyed already, so what is the point in my trying to sweat them?

Yeah, you could go around and make gives and be cordial, but it is not my idea of fun. So I pay the price and ignore them most of the time.

	04-03-2004 09:22									#25
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I agree with you Switch. TBS games will not get a real comprehensive AI.

	04-03-2004 09:25									#26
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Dexters the AI already knows all tiles and what is on them, hence it knows about your unit disposition.

Set up a blockade out of it sight range and see can see the settler combo turn around and head back. Even though it can't see the units blocking from where it is standing.

I don't know if it know that is is made up swords or horse or whatever, but it knows units are there.

	04-03-2004 10:07									#27
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Yeah I know. As you noted knowing where the units are may or may not mean they know what the units are.

Also, The pathfinding routine may only be looking for a path from point A to point B and our blockade merely blocks the path. The AI may not even know its units thats blocking the path, only the path no longer exist.

	04-03-2004 20:56									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Willem At the very least, there should be a non-aggression agreement in the game, not just mutual protection.

Non-Aggression Pacts are already there, though not by name. I do this a lot when I get into a war with Civ A, and really don't want Civ B coming in on their side... open up diplo with Civ B, renegotiate peace, usually with no strings attached, and presto: 20 turn NAP. I abhor MPP's, and usually don't want Civ B involved on my side, either, so this works as well as anything. I haven't had Civ B break the peace before 20 turns are up yet.

	05-03-2004 03:03									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Non-Aggression Pacts are already there, though not by name. I do this a lot when I get into a war with Civ A, and really don't want Civ B coming in on their side... open up diplo with Civ B, renegotiate peace, usually with no strings attached, and presto: 20 turn NAP. I abhor MPP's, and usually don't want Civ B involved on my side, either, so this works as well as anything. I haven't had Civ B break the peace before 20 turns are up yet.

I don't recall Peace Treaty ever being in the diplomatic options, unless I've just been at war with them. I'll check that out though next time I play. I don't like MPPs either, I usually end up getting dragged into a war I don't want. And even with Military Alliances, sometimes War Weariness forces me to negotiate peace, then I take a diplomatic hit. I'd prefer just to have certain civs stay out of the conflict most of the time.

	05-03-2004 03:08									#30
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If you go to the "Active" button at the bottom of the diplo screen, it will show you every deal that is still active between you and the other civ, including the peace treaty. Select that, and you can renegoitiate peace with that civ.