05-03-2004 05:06									#31
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If near a river, then Market, Harbor Aquaduct. If no river, then Harbor, Aquaduct, Market, but probably for slightly different reasons than others here have posted for. With a river you can utilize the extra gold and use it with the Market. However, for the rest of my post I will assume there's no river nearby.

First: Harbor opens up the use of the water tiles. Without it, it's just another land city using up tiles. With an Aquaduct you can grow, and especially powerful: You can add pop via Workers. Pump it up to size 12, and share the land shield tiles until you finish the Market/Lib (if you haven't already built them before this situation arises).

You can always pop out a few Workers if you reach siez 6 before your Aqua finishes (likely), and add them back later. I like building lots and lots and lots of Workers though... insta-pop boom when you need it.

	05-03-2004 09:15									#32
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I accidently selected the wrong one. What I wanted to select is

Harbor, Aqueduct, Marketplace/Cathedral

I'm assuming that the city is not too far away from the capital city. The big population boost is ideal for a coastal town. Lots of trade in those water tiles.

	06-03-2004 06:55									#33
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Temple, banana, harbor, banana (rush this), granary, banana (again rushed), Settler, Marketplace, banana x 3, Aquaduct, banana...

My goal is usually to set at least one coastal town up as a banana-factory.

- bvc

	07-03-2004 03:01									#34
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My Build would go like this

1. Temple
* Provides 2 happy faces
* Povides 2 cultural points
* Cost: 60s

Temple decreses unhappy persons and is also needed for border expansion (a critical need on a coastal site as most coastal sites need a BE in order to gain bonus resources (fish/whales, ect)

Cathedrals only produce one more CP with a cost double of a temple. Libraries do provide 4 CP but do not increase happiness.
and cost 80s

2. Harbor
*Increses food in coastal and sea tiles by 1
*Allows production of Veteran Naval units
* Cost: 60s

Increases food in sea tiles absoultely necessary if the tiles around the city are not capable of producing growth. Also, since Naval production is a high priority for me, a harbor is the highest priority for a costal city.

3. Marketplace
* Increases Commerce by 50%
* Povides happiness with luxuries.
* Cost: 100s

Since the tiles worked in the city will mainly be sea tiles increasing commerce of the city will be a high priority, with 3 luxuries the happiness increases more than justify its relatively high cost in shields.

	07-03-2004 05:29									#35
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Temples do not provide any happy citizens. They make one content citizen.

	07-03-2004 05:33									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber My Build would go like this 1. Temple * Provides 2 happy faces * Povides 2 cultural points * Cost: 60s

Temple is 1 content face.

It's slightly cheaper than a library for the culture expansion, but if you use the luxury slider at all the temple is 60s in the sea. It costs 1 in upkeep, and 1 coin would provide that 1 content face anyway.

	07-03-2004 16:19									#37
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quote: if you use the luxury slider at all the temple is 60s in the sea. It costs 1 in upkeep, and 1 coin would provide that 1 content face anyway.

But it also costs you alot more gold in all your towns/cities/metroes when you use the luxary slider, so the choice is 60s, 1gpt, or ~15gpt late ancient era/ middle ages. It might be just me, but i would pick the temple because of the cultural expansion

	07-03-2004 18:32									#38
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Krill: Yeah, I should have added the caveat that in pretty corrupt cities temples might very well be the best way to get that content face. (As you don't want a library in them anyway, and you need 10 cp from somewhere.)

But as this town was going to actually be built up some we can assume that the corruption is decently low.

If corruption is high then it's just harbour. (If even that, unless you can work a few irrigated grassland you won't be able to make many specialists.)

	07-03-2004 19:15									#39
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Lethe: If corruption is low/town is near capital, then th first option is granary, and build a few settlers, (I REX a bit more than I should), but out of the given options, habour, marketplace, aquaduct, (then library).

	08-03-2004 01:52									#40
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Aqueduct -> harbor -> courthouse -> marketplace

	08-03-2004 23:49									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Cathedrals only produce one more CP with a cost double of a temple. Libraries do provide 4 CP but do not increase happiness. and cost 80s

The equation changes a bit if you have Sistine, of course, but also the Temple isn't optional if you want the Cathedral.

quote: Originally posted by dojoboy Aqueduct -> harbor -> courthouse -> marketplace

Lots of shields for the courthouse, often for very little benefit. What's your break-even point in terms of corruption for building or not building the courthouse?

	09-03-2004 11:24									#42
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quote: Originally posted by lethe Krill: Yeah, I should have added the caveat that in pretty corrupt cities temples might very well be the best way to get that content face. (As you don't want a library in them anyway, and you need 10 cp from somewhere.) But as this town was going to actually be built up some we can assume that the corruption is decently low. If corruption is high then it's just harbour. (If even that, unless you can work a few irrigated grassland you won't be able to make many specialists.)

I would build the temple mainly for the border expansion even though it provides only one content citizen. A library would be my next build after the marketplace, followed by an aqueduct.


I am shocked that most would build an aqueduct before they build the means to increase direct growth (harbor) as the premise of this question indicated that the tiles surrounding the city were poor growth sites (presumably hills, mountains, and/or tundra)

	09-03-2004 14:51									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber ...the premise of this question indicated that the tiles surrounding the city were poor growth sites (presumably hills, mountains, and/or tundra)

Many responses have been conditional, depending upon the number of inland tiles available and their (food) quality. The scenario presumed a lack of available inland tiles rather than poor food tiles, so depending on the starting town size and the number of reasonable inland food tiles available, you may be able to squeeze in an aqueduct before you actually need the harbour to sustain growth.

But I would agree - in the extreme situation where there are no inland tiles available for use, you would probably have to build the harbour first to restart growth towards size 6 before bothering with the aqueduct.

	10-03-2004 05:58									#44
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Um, this presumes a Temple, Colosseum, or Library has been built, yes?

Harbor, Aqua, happiness.

I'm in real estate, so I grew up with "location, location, location."

This is Civ, so "population, population, population."

	10-03-2004 07:21									#45
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I think it is with nothing built. IIRC.

	10-03-2004 10:48									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Um, this presumes a Temple, Colosseum, or Library has been built, yes?

I think you can assume a Temple has been built. A Libary wasn't part of the scenario, but I may quite possibly build one first anyway.

But then even with a Temple, on Emperor and only 2 luxuries, you can't get to size 6 without using the luxury slider and/or entertainers.

	10-03-2004 12:30									#47
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Ok here it is:

"1. Would your answer change if some of your buildings were half price?
2. Would your answer chance if the towns in questions did not have a Temple either?"


So you can do it both ways.

	11-03-2004 00:47									#48
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Several contributors stated that they would build a Temple first, or a Granary first, or both. I found in mid-game AU501 that the food was coming in so fast that the town would be Size 6 before the granary was complete, anyway. (Corrupt towns, which was NOT the original premise.)

So I'll ask THAT question: how do you develop corrupt coastal towns? If there's a *lot* of food I let them grow to size 6 before deploying specialists. If there is only a basic +2fpt I'm inclined to grow to 2 or 3 and then build a harbor...but then what? Am I wasting my time building more than a temple...or even building that?

	11-03-2004 01:35									#49
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For Corrupt Coastal towns, I think we end up in another big "it depends".
On government/rushing type
On bank account and cashflow(dependent on rush type)
On level of corruptness

I'd be inclined to throw a courthouse in there somewhere, depending on how corrupt the town is, whether I can afford to rush it with cash or if I can grow it enough to poprush it. Then, I think, you end up in the original situation again, balancing population, food, happiness, income, and production.

But definitely, unless "completely" corrupt, I think a courthouse would enter into the queue, at least for me.

	11-03-2004 05:34									#50
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My question re Temples and whatnot was not about happiness... I'm just pointing out that I'd like to have cultural expansion before building a Harbor.

	11-03-2004 09:13									#51
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quote: Originally posted by ducki For Corrupt Coastal towns, I think we end up in another big "it depends".

Well, one of us had to say it...

quote: On bank account and cashflow(dependent on rush type)

As per my "Seven Cities" thread, I never seem to have enough cash(flow) to rush more than one improvement in such a city. As per Theseus, that one improvement is usually a Temple, both to push my borders (often to reach a whale or something) and as a cultural vaccination against flipping.

quote: But definitely, unless "completely" corrupt, I think a courthouse would enter into the queue, at least for me.

The darned courthouses are *so* expensive and seem to yield so little. We're back to figuring out that break-even point above which a courthouse is worthwhile, and below which the city just stinks.

	11-03-2004 09:38									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard So I'll ask THAT question: how do you develop corrupt coastal towns?

Depends on the level of corruption. If totally corrupt (say >80%), then it doesn't really matter too much what you do. Bearing in mind the objective is to create commerce and/or production, totally corrupt towns will do neither and furthermore, luxury slider usage won't help them either. Increasing pop above 6 in these towns costs commerce, both for the infrastructure upkeep and the rush cost, while only providing the possible benefit (depending on government type) of unit support.

If corruption is less than 80%, a courthouse would probably be the best thing to go with early on (and temple for border expansion).

	11-03-2004 10:20									#53
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quote: The darned courthouses are *so* expensive and seem to yield so little. We're back to figuring out that break-even point above which a courthouse is worthwhile, and below which the city just stinks.

As long as the courthouse will net you 2 gpt, I'd say it's worth it in the long run.
1 to pay for itself and 1 to pay off it's rush cost over X turns, then it's profit.
Even better if it nets you a shield - courthouses also do that, don't they? Or did I pick the wrong day to quit sniffing glue?

Of course, all that is in a vacuum and ignores the impact on your short-term balance sheet. Too bad you're not in Feudalism/Despotism and could poprush part of it.

It also doesn't offer a way to know for sure if the courthouse will help or not.

	11-03-2004 11:08									#54
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quote: Originally posted by ducki As long as the courthouse will net you 2 gpt, I'd say it's worth it in the long run. 1 to pay for itself and 1 to pay off it's rush cost over X turns, then it's profit. Even better if it nets you a shield - courthouses also do that, don't they? Or did I pick the wrong day to quit sniffing glue? Of course, all that is in a vacuum and ignores the impact on your short-term balance sheet. Too bad you're not in Feudalism/Despotism and could poprush part of it. It also doesn't offer a way to know for sure if the courthouse will help or not.

Heh, I haven't seen Airplane in quite a while.

Yes, courthouses effect shield waste as well as commerce corruption.

	11-03-2004 16:33									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard We're back to figuring out that break-even point above which a courthouse is worthwhile, and below which the city just stinks.

Corruption has changed somewhat in C3C. Basically, a Courthouse reduces the adjusted distance by 50% for the distance corruption calculation, and increases the adjusted OCN by 25% for the rank corruption calculation.

It's going to be pretty hard under any circumstances to get meaningful production out of cities with a rank higher than the adjusted OCN, even ignoring distance corruption which is likely to be high under such circumstances (unless your FP is nearby).

However, the maximum corruption limit is 90% for all cities, but 80% if you have a Courthouse. So from this perspective you could argue a Courthouse is always effective.

Bottom line is - a Courthouse can be quite effective in reducing distance corruption and somewhat less effective in reducing rank corruption, as long as you haven't exceeded your adjusted OCN. The best way to increase your adjusted OCN is to build your FP (anywhere).

I've assumed here that you're not in Communism, so have ignored the SPHQ.

(Alexman, please correct me if I've misinterpreted any of this)

	11-03-2004 17:37									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard So I'll ask THAT question: how do you develop corrupt coastal towns?

Tipically for me: harbor/temple, courthouse, marketplace, aqueduct, bank, commercial dock. Period.
In between, some military units (mostly as pre-builds).

The most important feature for me is a harbour in case of war. The rest is mainly decoration.

PS: more tips on your thread.

	11-03-2004 23:20									#57
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Thanks to all. Next question: what's the easiest way to estimate total corruption for a given city (assuming that it is still relatively small)?

	11-03-2004 23:44									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard Next question: what's the easiest way to estimate total corruption for a given city (assuming that it is still relatively small)?

Not that answer you want to hear, but: experience.

	11-03-2004 23:52									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Thriller If totally corrupt (say >80%), then it doesn't really matter too much what you do. Bearing in mind the objective is to create commerce and/or production, totally corrupt towns will do neither and furthermore, luxury slider usage won't help them either. Increasing pop above 6 in these towns costs commerce, both for the infrastructure upkeep and the rush cost, while only providing the possible benefit (depending on government type) of unit support.

It can still be well worth your while to grow the pop in such towns, particularly if there is any bonus food source or if you're agricultural - provided you can handle some micromanagement. By getting a city above size 6, the food box expands to 40 food bushels. Even without any food bonuses, you'll always have 2 extra food from the city tile -- the two extra food can support one taxman bringing in two extra uncorrupted gold per turn. You can even let the food box grow to almost full, and then assign two taxmen while you let the food box dwindle -- this is especially helpful with an Ag civ since the food deficit is only 1 per turn, allowing 30+ turns of 4 commerce per turn before dropping back to 2 commerce per turn to prevent starvation. A totally corrupted coastal town of size 7 can be a very profitable little burg, even after investing in a needed inprovement or two. (Remember that specialists need no happiness modifiers, so a size 7 city with a 40-bushel food box that regularly uses one or two specialists will need little, if any, happiness improvements). The possession of Adam Smith's will make this approach even more attractive, since it substantially eliminates any upkeep costs -- invest up front in a harbor and an aqueduct, a market if absolutely necssary, and a temple or library to expand the borders (the truly economically anal can sell the temple or library after expansion to eliminate the 1 gpt upkeep, limiting the ongoing operational expenses to 1 gpt for the aqueduct).

Bonus food means more specialists. And the on-again / off-again starvation cycle can be very handy during those turns where making 20 scientists (several from each corrupted coastal city) can allow you to lower the science slider but still research a tech in the same timeframe -- often saving lots of gold.

The power of specialists is so juiced up in C3C that they often deserve a tactic of their own instead of trying to reduce corruption and extract value (other than food) from tiles.

Catt

	12-03-2004 02:48									#60
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Also a size 7 gives extra unit support for some governments.