12-03-2004 03:21									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Catt It can still be well worth your while to grow the pop in such towns, particularly if there is any bonus food source or if you're agricultural - provided you can handle some micromanagement. By getting a city above size 6, the food box expands to 40 food bushels. Even without any food bonuses, you'll always have 2 extra food from the city tile -- the two extra food can support one taxman bringing in two extra uncorrupted gold per turn. You can even let the food box grow to almost full, and then assign two taxmen while you let the food box dwindle -- this is especially helpful with an Ag civ since the food deficit is only 1 per turn, allowing 30+ turns of 4 commerce per turn before dropping back to 2 commerce per turn to prevent starvation. A totally corrupted coastal town of size 7 can be a very profitable little burg, even after investing in a needed inprovement or two. (Remember that specialists need no happiness modifiers, so a size 7 city with a 40-bushel food box that regularly uses one or two specialists will need little, if any, happiness improvements). The possession of Adam Smith's will make this approach even more attractive, since it substantially eliminates any upkeep costs -- invest up front in a harbor and an aqueduct, a market if absolutely necssary, and a temple or library to expand the borders (the truly economically anal can sell the temple or library after expansion to eliminate the 1 gpt upkeep, limiting the ongoing operational expenses to 1 gpt for the aqueduct). Bonus food means more specialists. And the on-again / off-again starvation cycle can be very handy during those turns where making 20 scientists (several from each corrupted coastal city) can allow you to lower the science slider but still research a tech in the same timeframe -- often saving lots of gold. The power of specialists is so juiced up in C3C that they often deserve a tactic of their own instead of trying to reduce corruption and extract value (other than food) from tiles. Catt

I did something like that in AU501. I had about 8 mostly corrupt cities on the jungle islands to the west. Once I had some of the jungle cut down I started irrigating the area heavily. For the price of a rush built aqueduct and a rush built marketplace in each city (about 700 gold per city for a total of 5600 gold) they were able to grow to size 12 and still be happy (several luxuries with the marketplace bonus). With as much food as the irrigated grasslands were producing I was able to devote 7 citizens in each town to scientists for a total of 168 beakers per turn....in cities that nominally would be producing less than a handful of commerce. Bottom line my extra gold allowed me to build improvements that allowed me to generate beakers in corrupt towns, thereby freeing up other commerce for gold and more rushes. None of those cities ever built much else, but they sure produced the beakers for me. Specialists are powerful.

	13-03-2004 08:13									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Catt It can still be well worth your while to grow the pop in such towns

Yes, good points as usual Catt.

And let's not forget the 50% defensive bonus for a size 7 town.

	15-03-2004 04:53									#63
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- or the two extra supported units for size 7 towns under Republic in C3C - crucial.


edit :

- or the extra shield / commerce that you get from size 7 - especially as we're probably talking Ind/Comm traits here (no Agr, Mil, Sea)

On the first point, each aqua is worth 4 gpt in support costs alone, as you get two more free supported units that were costing 2gpt each. Aquas are more valuable in C3C - especially with the specialists, as Catt mentioned.

Last edited by Cort Haus on 15-03-2004 at 05:01

	15-03-2004 07:55									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus - or the extra shield / commerce that you get from size 7 - especially as we're probably talking Ind/Comm traits here (no Agr, Mil, Sea)

I'm probably just looking at it cross-eyed, but you lost me on that. Why are we talking about Industrious and Commercial?

	17-03-2004 07:49									#65
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I was never actually going to post my thoughts on the subject, because I knew someone would come along and sum them up nicely for me:

quote: Originally posted by Catt Postage-stamp sized answer: Pop is power. Do not let addressable constraints limit growth. Harbor = food & commerce; aqueduct = more food & commerce. Even in the face of happiness constraints, the power of specialists in C3C often indicates that pop growth is worthwhile (especially if there's a bonus food available) so a city can resume growth immediately from a high pop point as soon as circumstances allow (i.e., a new luxury is acquired via trade or expansion / conquest). If not emphasizing research, a market's value increases -- if researching at full bore, a market serves as little more than happiness provider. To address the phenomena of "harbor induces coastal tile working and low shields" is to micromanage for shields, giving the coastal city a turn or two here or there on a shared shield-rich land tile. Most often I'll choose a harbor first -- this doesn't necesaarily mean I start working coastal tiles immediately, but it means I can grow the town using available shared land tiles (and shields) to build additional improvements, and still switch the citizens over to water tiles for turns at a stretch without worrying about starvation, for example if production power must be shifted to interior cities. The interesting balancing act, for me, is how much and when to sacrifice interior cities' productive power in order to allow coastal cities to build what's needed. Once the coastal city has its necessary improvements (harbor, market, lib, aqueduct - whatever makes sense in the grander strategic plan) it can be left to sit as a cash cow while the interior reasserts control on production power of land tiles. With a goal of getting coastal towns / cities to the "cash cow" stage, the question is how much early production power will be drained from interior cities - and the overall opportunity cost of that in terms of other game needs (units, for example).

That pretty much covers it all. In short: that's Harbor, then Aqueduct, then Marketplace (or Cathedral, if doing research and Happiness is an issue, but also only if Religious).

I should have made explicit the assumption that the city already has a Temple (since Cathedrals were an option). The question of which to build first between Temple and Harbor (at 60 Shields each) is also interesting: personally I would always build a Harbor first if the city is to become a productive "cash cow", unless there is Whale or Fish to obtained via the Temple. Again, it's all about Food.

quote: I want cash cows as early as possible -- but I need to balance that against the trade-off of lesser early production in interior cities. That is the interesting tactical challenge, IMHO.

So true. Perhaps this thread should now turn into a discussion about this very issue:

To what extent to you let coastal towns use inland, Shield-producing tiles to "build up", at the expense of productivity in non-coastal cities? Do you shift everything to Coast/Sea and use Gold to rush stuff, or do you make sure coastal towns have a decent spt to work with?


Dominae

	17-03-2004 07:54									#66
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quote: Originally posted by ducki I'm probably just looking at it cross-eyed, but you lost me on that. Why are we talking about Industrious and Commercial?

In the problem setup I specified that none of the relevant improvements were half-price. So that takes away Religious, Militaristic, Seafaring and Agricultural, leaving Expansionist, Commercial, Industrious and Scientific. So you're right that we're not necessarily talking about the French.

However, I did ask how your answers would change if some of your improvements were half-price. Would 40-Shield Libraries convince you to build them before Harbors, Aqueducts, Temples or Marketplaces (in coastal towns)?


Dominae

	17-03-2004 08:46									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae In short: that's Harbor, then Aqueduct, then Marketplace (or Cathedral, if doing research and Happiness is an issue, but also only if Religious).

In the extreme case where you have no inland tiles available to work, yes I would agree since you won't grow beyond size 2 without a Harbour.

In my analysis I assumed you would have some access to inland squares for a while, because with 3-tile city spacing you can usually grow most cities to at least size 10, so you probably would have 3 or 4 inland tiles available, which may enable you to delay the Harbour build and still keep growing until you've got additional infrastructure setup for the eventual move past size 6.

Which as you've pointed out, now leads us to a discussion on how to best allocate landed tiles that can be worked by multiple cities.

	17-03-2004 18:20									#68
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quote: However, I did ask how your answers would change if some of your improvements were half-price. Would 40-Shield Libraries convince you to build them before Harbors, Aqueducts, Temples or Marketplaces (in coastal towns)?

I can't speak for ducki, but if I'm playing a scientific civ, the order might go like this:

Harbor, Library, Aqueduct, Market.

-Arrian

	17-03-2004 22:27									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I should have made explicit the assumption that the city already has a Temple (since Cathedrals were an option). The question of which to build first between Temple and Harbor (at 60 Shields each) is also interesting: personally I would always build a Harbor first if the city is to become a productive "cash cow", unless there is Whale or Fish to obtained via the Temple. Again, it's all about Food.

I usually build the Harbor first unless I can grab a whale or fish with a border boost, or if cultural pressure is an issue (in or out). Now, do you also build a granary, and if so, where in the sequence? I usually do not because I have food but few shields.