03-03-2004 18:46									#1
	Great Lighthouse build options Full PM-box? Change here!

First off, I would like to state that I am still evaluating other cities for this build, but for right now, this is what I have available for options:

HoD Options - In all cases, the library is finished as currently planned and we then will be able to use University(200 sheilds) as the first part of build to keep it stealthy, then changing to Palace and then to to GL(300 sheilds) on the last turn. HoD has a marketplace, so it can safely support a size 8 city without any additional lux/happiness help.

Option #1: Straight to the GL build - GL is built on turn 201. From the start of this build until finished, it will be limited to size 6. The accumulated trade (after corruption) for the city over this time frame (from turn 162) is 392 trade arrows, not adjusted with Market/Lib. During the GL build, the city is producing 10 SPT and 10 TPT after corruption/waste. GA figures would be 15 SPT and 15 TPT.

Option #2: Build an Aquaduct so that it can get to higher pops. Add 1 worker to it and have it work the fish, this will give the city a surplus of 1 Food per Turn. Plus the extra trade from the fish and the city center (commercial over 6 pop). Then building a Harbor, giving it 2 surplus food so that the city can get up to size 8 and work another mountian tile. We add another worker to get it to size 8 and build the GL at that time. The GL is built on turn 214 (13 turns later than option #1). The accumulated trade (after corruption) , up to turn 201 (to keep the evaluation equil over time) is 496 trade arrows, not adjusted with Market/Lib. That is a differance of 104 extra trade, before Market/Lib bonuses. During the GL build, the city is producing 12 SPT and 15 TPT after corruption/waste. GA figures would be 19 SPT and 22 TPT.

Option #3: same as Option #2, but shortrushing the Aqua and Harbor. We get the GL sooner and the size increases sooner. The exact time of all of this would depend on how much short rushing is involved. The "best fit" of the short rushing would require 396 gold expended, in 2 short rushes and the GL would be completed on turn 204. The accumulated trade (after corruption) , up to turn 201 (to keep the evaluation equil over time) is 531 trade arrows, not adjusted with Market/Lib. That is a differance of 35 extra trade over Option #2 and 139 extra trade over Option #1, before Market/Lib bonuses. The SPT/TPT figures are the same as in Option #2.

I will examine a couple of other build sites over the next several days, but this will atleast get the ball rolling on this discussion.

MoI E_T

Last edited by E_T on 04-03-2004 at 02:35

	03-03-2004 19:41									#2
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E_T,

Sounds like those are big shortrushes. Obviously they're not saving off a turn or two and eliminating inefficiency (since the city is a 10spt city).

Hmm...

We're ahead in tech, fairly far ahead, IIRC. I wonder, could we make this into a Magellan's prebuild, instead of a G.Light prebuild? Magellan has the advantage of never expiring. The question is shield cost. I actually don't remember how much it is (400?).

-Arrian

	03-03-2004 20:25									#3
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Yes, 400 sheilds where GL is 300.

Thing is, with both GL (which is Obsolite with Magnetism) and Magellin's, we can, for a time, have galleys/caravels that will travel 5 tiles in a turn. We can round trip to the Western CGN shore in 4 turns. To me, if we are supporting an invasion, that is a very good transfer rate. And, if we are possibly planning an invasion of the other contenent, this would help us greatly, because we can get around any pickets that they might put up.

Also, at this point in time, we don;t know what tech paths we are going to be persuing and at what rate we will be doing it in. We might not get to Nav in time for us to use this as a good prebuild for Magellin's.

Furthermore, When we get our GA, I would like to have as many of the techs for Wonder builds as is possible, so that we can build (or start building them) in our GA.

Personally, I like the #2 Option, as it gets us a little bit more time to get things ready for the GA. AND we have the greater Trade from that Option. And when we get our GA, HoD will have a very good SPT/TPT rate, worthy of a secondary core city.

MoI E_T

	03-03-2004 20:35									#4
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I like #2 as well, but I'd like us to keep in mind the possibility of switching the build to Magellans, if our tech path goes that way.

The GL will provide faster galleys and caravels, but it will not provide faster galleons. It is made obselete by Magnetism. So there is a trade of speed for carrying capacity.

Obviously, if we want to take a shot at BOTH, it's worth considering, but where would we build Magellans? In HoD during the GA?

-Arrian

	03-03-2004 21:10									#5
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Oh, and one other reason for going for GL instead of Magellins now, is that it will get us the GA just a little bit sooner (for those of us who are chomping at the GA bit).

E_T

	03-03-2004 21:20									#6
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Are there those chomping at the GA bit? I want our GA, but I would think an idea time for it would be once our new southern core has had some time to build basic improvements (market, library) so that the commerce boost is magnified.

Some quick math... if under plan #2 the GL completes on T214, and the city is making 12spt, then Magellans would take 8-9 more turns (depending on the exact shield count) to finish. Call it 9.

So a 9 turn delay in the GA in exchange for a much more valueable wonder (IMO).

-Arrian

	03-03-2004 21:38									#7
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I think that one of the reasons that some people were wanting the GA sooner, was to try to get a good shot at Leos, with the GA production. Especially, at the time, we didn;t know when GWT would be getting Invention, which they now have.

E_T

	03-03-2004 22:12									#8
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Ah, I see.

Fair enough, but I just don't see that we have any shot at Leos. If it still hasn't been built by the time the Lighthouse is ready, well, ok, maybe we take the GA then and have a shot at it. But I seriously doubt that.

One of the big boys is going to build it. I'd bet on GWT.

-Arrian

	03-03-2004 22:58									#9
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Likely with a GreatLeader

E_T

	03-03-2004 23:49									#10
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Talked about it a bit in chat, but just throwing it out here in the forum...

What if we switched the current Library build to an Aquaduct, then went straight for the wonder build? We could still get to size 8, and we could irrigate more tiles closer to home (yes, it would cost us some shields, but how much would that change things? 1 or 2 turns?).

Or we could do Lib-Aqua-wonder and skip the harbor... how would that change things?

(Yes, I can pretty much figure the answer out myself, but it's best to have it codified in the forum and up for discussion )

	04-03-2004 03:31									#11
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Magellans

GL is good, but Magellans is better and worth the 9 extra turns or so.

	06-03-2004 13:24									#12
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I missed this the other day (personal issues) so let me comment now. Now that the CGN loan is a virtual done deal then option 3 above isn't as likely to be viable (or win in a poll). Therefore I would prefer option 2 or perhaps MZ's idea above. We are likely the only civ to be rushing toward either wonder as it will not help either GWT or CGN in their wars and CFC doesn't need it for a golden age themselves.

Regarding the GL/Magellans, we are very likely to be the first to navigation if we continue our tech path on through astronomy. That said, we have far and away the best shot at Magellans and it will be a much better wonder for us since it doesn't ever expire.

	06-03-2004 17:49									#13
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#1 and #2 both sound attractive. The only question might be whether we think we'd actually lose one of the wonders (Magellan's or the GL) if we waited the extra 13 turns. If not, you go with #2 and wait the extra 13 turns for all of that extra trade we'd get out of the city over time.

As for what wonder to build, again if you can do it, you CLEARLY pick Magellan's. The only reason you wouldn't is if you really think GWT is going to beat us to it (forget about CGN, they aren't going to be building any wonders unless they get a GL... and any GL at this point is likely to be used for an army anyhow).

The overriding factor in all of this is at what point it would be optimal to start our GA. Perhaps we should look at how long it will take to get various improvements up in the southern (AP) core under NON-GA conditions and then look at what it would mean if the GA were to start at different points. Might be a lot of work, but it would tell us more accurately when we WANT to start our GA... then we can figure out if that knowledge makes any of the above options more or less attractive than they were before.

	06-03-2004 18:05									#14
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That is the other Options that I'm going to be exporing soon. I stated, at the begining of this thread, that I was going to be looking at a few other cities...

MoI E_T

	06-03-2004 23:06									#15
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Arne: We have time to get things set up in the south before the decision as to whether to do the GL or Mags will be pertinent.

	12-03-2004 17:25									#16
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Bumping this, I'll link it into another discussion thread that I'm going to be working on.

MoI E_T

	18-03-2004 20:59									#17
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Since we're talking wonders and tech in the other thread, I wanted to bring this up again.

I would like to have HoD switch from library to aqueduct (as per Trip's suggestion), and otherwise follow plan #2, gunning for Magellans.

I don't know the exact dates, but I would think such a plan would get us Magellans around T215, triggering our GA.

We've played through T164, right? So we're talking about ~50 turns until our GA, which sounds pretty good to me. So does having Magellans for the eventual showdown with GWT.

-Arrian