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Dominae
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Where can I get the turn?!
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
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you can pm vondrack to add you to the distribution list.
I can email it to you, if you want. What is your address?
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
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what a bizarre turn.
I can only think that its setting up a lego/nd takedown of GoW.
what else makes sense?
Though they could come for us first, I suppose, then GoW.
I need to talk to MZ, or someone does, he's been away for a while, and I was quite busy last week.
we must tread carefully, its quite possible that GoW is in on this as well, can we trust them with our goals?
we're so alone in this game....
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by asleepathewheel
I can email it to you, if you want. What is your address? |
a blah petryk bleh hotmail bloh com
blah - underscore
bleh - @
bloh - .
Thanks!
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vmxa1
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Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by vulture
Do you not think we might have pushed them into this? After the chat to set up mutual research between us, ND and GoW, they wanted physics for 600 gold, and we asked for 800. It's not impossible that this annoyed them ("they want us not to trade with Lego, but want to price-gouge us for a tech we can't get from anyone else but Lego..."), such that they're willing to trade with Lego rather than put up with us trying to fleece them for every penny (as they'd see it).
If the situations had been reversed, I think we'd have been rather unhappy about it too, and bought from Lego. |
I agree it was not wise to get greedy on this, but you have to be childish to pout. IOW it was a dialog, a barter. They made an offer, we counter, they should counter back until we make a deal or not.
We over charge GoW as well, by asking for full value. These will upset people, no doubt.
The thing is grown up make a deal and go on. If you agree that we needed to band together to stop Lego, then you make the best deal you can and you do not cut off your nose to spite your face.
So if you do not agree that the teams needed to stop Lego, then that is another issue. Do not say you agree, if you are going to act counter to that position.
I see no reason to not take them at their word. IOW that they are not planning to attack. If you were, if would be smarter to just say you made a mistake in dealing with Lego and string us along. Here they are saying we don't care about you or the game.
I really do not like playing with people that will not try to win. I met a lot of card players in the Navy that played hearts like that.
They did not understand that they owed it to the other players to play hard to the end. It is great for the person (team) that is in first place to have others roll over.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
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I agree with dom in the other thread. it would seem that Gow and GS are in the same position-the two smaller powers. Perhaps we should form an "Unholy Alliance"
is there any other choice at this point?
shoot for ToE, all the while building whatever units we can.
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Tall Stranger
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Northern Virginia
Nov 2002
time: 00:34
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Vulture, I am afraid I must disagree. They may very well have felt we were asking for too much gold. That's why we have negotiations. If they're even marginally intelligent people (and they are), they had to have expected us to ask for more. You work this out like adults, not children. If the situation had been reversed, I think we would have tried to negotiate a deal rather than further strengthen the team with the greatest chance of victory.
What bugs me is that they gave (IIRC) at least lip-service to the idea of a trade embargo with Lego. Now, only a couple turns later, they're essentially going back on their word.
I tend to agree with CH and Arrian: I don't see a path to victory with ND taking this stance. All Lego needs to do is maintain the status quo and they've won. They can side with ND in the unlikely event of a GoW invasion, and with GoW in the event of an ND invasion. GoW can't win without more land (obtained at ND's expense), and ND can't build up all that territory fast enough to compete with Lego. While our economy rocks now, in the longer-term we're simply not big enough to compete with a larger adversary.
Someone needs to explain to them that there's no silver medal here, and no glory in accepting second place when you have a legitimate chance at first. These guys are either idiots or they're trying to scam us (for some unknowable purpose).
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Dominae
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Thoughts on the turn:
1. Winds of Change: Harbor before Aqueduct?
2. Inchoff: one Laborer from Coast to Mountains.
3. Sufa: reduce to 5spt using Coast; build another Worker
4. Typhoon: already at 5spt; build Worker
5. Sandstorm: rearrange Laborers for 2-turn Worker-pump; 2 Flood Plains, 1 Desert, 1 Furs (from Hurricane), for 4spt +6spt upon growth to size 5.
6. Hurricane: rush Settler (4 Gold); rearrange Laborers for 10spt (Courthouse in 5 turns).
7. Use 2spt Grasslands from Sufa to speed up University.
8. Super-Micro: Hurricane 1 to 7, Eye of the Storm 23 to 69, Tornado 69 to 87. This gives Tornado at extra spt, at the loss of 1cpt in Hurricane.
9. Science to 60%.
10. Did we send word to RP to build more cities?
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Dominae
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Another point: we might to sell some of our Barracks. Many of them will only be sucking up gpt for quite a while.
Dominae
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:34
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Start
- Typhoon completes lib, starts worker
- At this point, 'break' into the build queue, go to Blizzard, and change to worker. exit queue
- Sufa builds worker. Starts worker
- SS builds worker. Starts worker
- Blizzard builds worker. Starts worker
222g, steam in 2 turns @60%, 449 bpt, 43 gpt.
Reason this is 20 gpt lower is that RP is not paying us gpt anymore, ambassadors please look into this!
Moves
- 3 workers gather around SS. One starts to mine a plain. I can correct the mistake of last turn, but it is not so optimal... still worker in 2. Starting with WF distribution as Dom said.
- Sufa worker moves close to Cyclone
- WoC workers moves toward Arashi
- 3 workers just done forting the hill near Monsoon move to M6. Forest.
- 8 workers on A9 move to M6, forest, chop, and irrigate. Net effect: 10 shields to Monsoon, 1 turn of its uni.
- all workers from A6 move to A7. 2 start to plant forest (I didn't dear to use 4, I remember to have read something that workers now finish their tasks at the start of the turn. That forest should not be planted before other workers can chop it in the same turn.)
- all troops left over from the shuffling last turn fortify
- Galley2 moves 2222, to go see if there's a little island down there (I doubt it, but you never know)
- our Western most galleon moves 3222 to uncover some more fog.
- our Southern most galley (off the coast of Panama Vox) moves 223 to uncover some more fog. Should have been 226 to spot Lego coast, but my hand slipped. Not important.
- Northern most galley moves 888
- last Galleon (Eastern most, quite close to our Western most on the other side of the dayline) starts near the same caravel, which seems to have stayed in the same spot. Moves 2222.
workforce shuffles
- D-ville uses 4 mountains, gives iron back to Monsoon.
- Monsoon uses iron again, instead of other mountain
- Inchoff moves one worker from a coast to a mountain. Harbor speeded up by one turn.
- Inchon changes entertainer to tax collector (probably a mistake I made last turn... which has cost us 1g.)
- SA moves one worker from a coast to mountain. Can switch to something more foody in 2 turns.
- Hurricane changed to use the plains instead of coast (as it has to give one fur to SS). Doesn't effect our eta of steam. Has to change back next turn, or the one after that... not sure.
- SS set to work 2 fp, 1 fur, 1 desert. Next turn mine will complete on one of the plains, so that the fur can be given back to Hurricane.
- Sufa gives enough shielded grass to Tornado, and takes the wheat to get 5spt, 4 fpt.
- Dom, Re: your super-micro move, I'm not sure... currently, I have the CH complete in 4, not in 5 (without shortrushing the settler), but I think I need the shields from the plain as I will lose them next turn to SS. I'm not sure, it could be that I missed it, it is quite complex. In case I see next turn I can give one of Hurricane's shields to Tornado, I will.
Current Builds
Eli : Aqua in 13
Inchon : CH in 1
WoC : Aqua in 9
Inchoff : Harb in 5
Diss : market in 5
Santa Ana : Lib in 3
Blizzard : worker in 1 (will start market after that)
Monsoon : Uni in 15
Arashi : ToE in 14 (13?) via Palace
WW : aqua in 15
Tempest : bank in 8
SS: worker in 3 (will go down)
Hurricane : CH in 4
OG : Mkt in 9
EotS : Hoover Dam (via Sistine)
BB : lib in 6
Cyclone: worker in 1
Tornado : Uni in 16
Typhoon : worker in 2
Sufa : worker in 2
Other
- Lego has ToG
- GoW has both ToG and Magnetism! Did they research Magnetism themselves? Or did we trade it to them previously?
- sent Chemistry to RP, everybody else has it.
- Does RP need another lux? they have a size 9 city now.
- ND has a new city on 'our' coast, and has an extra silks to trade. We don't have an extra lux, though. What was the word on GoW's lux situation?
- barracks have been sold already
- turn will be sent asap.
Next Turn
DeepO
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
- Lego has ToG
- GoW has both ToG and Magnetism! Did they research Magnetism themselves? Or did we trade it to them previously?
- sent Chemistry to RP, everybody else has it.
- Does RP need another lux? they have a size 9 city now.
- ND has a new city on 'our' coast, and has an extra silks to trade. We don't have an extra lux, though. What was the word on GoW's lux situation?
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we sold magnetism to GoW
I think chem is ok to give to RP now, I think the Gow nda has expired, but...
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
Dom, Re: your super-micro move, I'm not sure... currently, I have the CH complete in 4, not in 5 (without shortrushing the settler), but I think I need the shields from the plain as I will lose them next turn to SS. I'm not sure, it could be that I missed it, it is quite complex. In case I see next turn I can give one of Hurricane's shields to Tornado, I will.
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I did not take into account Worker actions in my comments (I assumed they would all stand still for some reason), so it makes sense that our approaches differ here.
In short, what I'm trying to get going is a 2-turn Worker-pump in Sandstorm, and a 2-turn (later, 1-turn) pump in that southern city (I forget the name right now), at the expense of "efficiency" in other cities. Obviously I understand that ToE and Hoover are priorities, but apart from those cities our Worker-pumps top the list. I'm sort of consufed as to why Sandstorm is on 3-turn Workers when we could have 2-turn instead; will it drop from 3 to 1 through Worker actions?
Dominae
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:34
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RP message: see log. Please give suggestions for another city here, and I'll transfer them to RP.
Dominae: a 2 turn pump in SS is my priority as well. If I didn't mess up the worker actions last turn, it would have shown 2 turns... now you see 3 turns, but it will go down and finish in time. Currently, we're at the 1st of 2 turns.
I fully agree that those pumps are top priority, and yesterday I was checking if we couldn't make SS into a 1-turn pump as well (it's close, but I think it stops at 9spt. It can reach 10fpt using 2 fps, 2 plains and the rest deserts). But as much as possible, I want to keep Hurricane at max commerce, as it uses its commerce most efficiently.
And Cyclone (the other pump): it will cut into the other cities efficiency, but not by much. Already I'm concentrating workers there to get it going once we have steam (and hopefully coal).
Oh, BTW: the reason we need those workers are of course RR at first, and adding them to cities later, but in the mean time I'd like to forest-deforest every possible tile to speed factories / hospitals. Once RP has been researched, we should get more then 1spt out of every worker, before hospitals (and after RR) that is the best we can get. We will probably keep those pumps going until our pop is fully maxed out.
DeepO
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:34
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On the ill-fated Physics trade with ND, a two-way negotiation was definitely expected. 600g was very cheap for Physics - less than 2 turns of output only. Bartering a price is not being 'greedy', and selling yourself short on hard-earned tech doesn't sound like a good policy.
However, if we had known that ND had no interest in locking Lego out, we'd have realised that the market price for Physics would tumble, as Lego would heavily discount to prevent the other teams making the smart move and isolating them.
ND created the impression of approving GAUL while intending no such thing. We were not being greedy, but negotiating in good faith while in return they refused to negotiate and instead turned round and drove a bus through GAUL.
I think vmxa1 is right in his card-analogy. For a decent game you expect and need all sides to play hard, rationally and competitively. If #2 refuses to work with #3 and #4, but instead helps #1 to victory, it just sucks.
ND can delude itself that it has the terrain to compete with Lego long-term, but GS and GoW have no such hope. Maybe ND think that if Lego are weakened, they themselves will become GS-GoW's next target.
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04-03-2004 04:00
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