04-03-2004 04:50									#1
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Reading some strategy info in one of the threads, i forgot where, i have learned that a good thing is to have a forest and a bunker in the base tile. What i found is that i cannot enhance the tile occupied by a Base with forest or bunker, but i can create a new Base on a tile containing:
-forest
-sensor
-bunker

interesting, so it can be done this way only?

	04-03-2004 06:29									#2
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putting bases on sensors is generally a good idea...it means you have +25% defence that can't be destroyed by bombers or snipers and the like...but i never heard about a bunker. does it provide a bonus to units defending in bunker-bases?

	04-03-2004 06:40									#3
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I have never heard of bunkers under a base either. Most base locations are well and truely taken by the time that tech comes along though.

	04-03-2004 09:49									#4
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Skanky--what became of the Kenyan tiger avatar?

	04-03-2004 10:53									#5
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I changed back to my previous avatar. Ahhh, redheads.

	04-03-2004 20:55									#6
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On the base tiles

1. sensor- good idea-- you get the 25% bonus and a sensor that can't be destroyed

2. Bunker-- I don't know-- I have never tested this effect. Personally I think its probably better to get a base plated earlier and get a perimeter defense.

3. Forest-- useless-- unlike the CIV games, the terrain of the base tile is irrelevant EXCEPT for specials (+2 of the special) and rivers ( add 1 energy) and the fact that bases can't start on rocky or fungus tiles. The flat arid tile should give you the exact same base tile resources as a rolling rainy.


I have found no way to improve a base tile after the base exists and in fact I have found that SOMETIMES you won't get a sensor on the base tile even if the former has started the sensor before the base is planted.

	04-03-2004 21:56									#7
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I may be wrong but IIRC I think I've seen forest growing into a base tile? Either that or I'm getting old

	04-03-2004 22:00									#8
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This way making tile upgrades before the base is established is the only way to get those excellent features there. And the only exception - spontaneous forest expansion as you DataAeolus observed. I wonder if there is still something more to it

	04-03-2004 22:06									#9
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Actually don't take my word for it. I'm not so sure myself. I'll have to experiment such as picking a base that doesn't have a forest on its tile. Then plant forest in surrounding tiles and see what happens.

	05-03-2004 01:16									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DataAeolus Actually don't take my word for it. I'm not so sure myself. I'll have to experiment such as picking a base that doesn't have a forest on its tile. Then plant forest in surrounding tiles and see what happens.

Plant it first or have it grow in later . . . it still will not matter one little bit with respect to the resources you will get from the base tile. Whether a forest woll grow into a base tile might be interesting but it has no practical consequences that I have ever seen.

	05-03-2004 01:33									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Most base locations are well and truely taken by the time that tech comes along though.

that's a good point. But i almost never build bunkers anyways

It's advanced military algorithms, right?

	05-03-2004 02:52									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber ...it has no practical consequences that I have ever seen.

i think it is additional defence bonus from the forest, what i have heard

	05-03-2004 02:58									#13
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quote: Originally posted by mart7x5 i think it is additional defence bonus from the forest, what i have heard

hmmm-- that could be---I guess I may have to test this out-- an extra 50% would be HUGE although I don't EVER remember seeing this in bases with a perimeter or AC. If it were cumulative with those things-- OUCH for the attacker

	05-03-2004 03:03									#14
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Was thinking about this and I know that in some CIV versions the underlying terrain made a huge difference. Wasn't there a strategy of placing a base on a mountain with city walls where a phlanx could regularly hold off a tank

	05-03-2004 15:49									#15
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Forset does not help or hinder a base in any way -- and forest does grow under bases just as easily as it does elsewhere.

	06-03-2004 03:53									#16
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The terrain does have an effect on the amount of movement points expended by units entering the base without benefit of a road or river; not a big deal, but if (and I think it is at least possible) the underlying terrain becomes fungus, it could stop an infantry unit from getting in.

The underlying terrain can also become 'rocky' sometimes via having its level raised/lowered due to sea level changes or cascading elevation changes from adjacent tiles. I don't know if there are any defensive implications.

Sensors under construction will definitely not complete if a base is placed on the site before they finish (the formers activate, I believe).

Resource specials convey their usual +2 to the base production. Often it is better to develop the special outside the base, but sometimes it seems better to incorporate a special into the base tile (particularly if it is not too developable, like a sea min special or if you are in a hurry to crank up the base, even at the expense of ultimate productivity).

	06-03-2004 03:59									#17
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quote: Originally posted by johndmuller Sensors under construction will definitely not complete if a base is placed on the site before they finish (the formers activate, I believe).

Thats what I thought although the sensor will appear if it is completed in the same turn the base is planted IIRC. IF this was not the case, you could just press w ("wait") on the colony to ensure the sensor was completed before planting the base

	06-03-2004 07:50									#18
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I can confirm that Forests grow under nearly any conditions. Those are some darn strong trees. They'll even grow over a Thermal Borehole. Won't affect the output one whit, but it's kind of a nice aesthetic touch. It'll also, if I've got my mind in order, grow under Condensors and Mirrors. It will bgrow under bases, and it will 100% certain grow under Collectors and even Mines sometimes. I have yet to see one ever grow under a farm.

Which would be a very, very good thing for Crawlers defending in that particular square, no? They wouldn't stand up to a sustained assault, but it'd prevent someone with Impact Choppers from slaughtering your whole energy park.

In addition, I do not believe Forests confer any bonuses to base defense. And considering my prolific use of Forests nowadays, I'd notice.

Bunkers probably would not for the same reason... as I understand it, base defense does not add to terrain, it overrides it. Sensors still work because that gives a bonus to the base itself, instead of random units in a given square.

In addition, if I have ever seen a base get rocky terrain under it due to terraforming, I have never noticed or paid attention, as it seemed to have zero effect on the base itself. Though I must admit, the advantages of a Forested or Rocky base square with an unkillable Sensor are not lost on me... I merely believe they don't count in. At least... they never have in any of my games.

	07-03-2004 08:34									#19
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IIRC, forests do eliminate the production of solar collectors when they grow under them. It's why it's always a good idea to build farms under all collectors, even if you're crawling them.

	19-03-2004 08:22									#20
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I have had a forest grow under a condensor while terraforming the farm and then get +1 nutrients from the forest. I've also tried to emulate that with the scenario editor and failed. I suspect version number, maybe SMAC vs. SMAX are involved. It also could have been the game being it's usual glitchy self.

	19-03-2004 08:44									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Forest just refuses to grow into rocky. Rocky squares are a pain, except when combined with min bonus. Also watch out for the 'hidden' rocky sea squares. You know you found one because you realise that it takes 6-8 turns to build a tidal harness instead of 3-4 turn. Otherwise they cannot be detected.

Another fun thing to do is build a Echelon mirror on your future base site.

	19-03-2004 16:19									#22
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I only recently discovered that you could terraform rocky squares into flatter terrain using the _ command. Nifty, to say the least.

	19-03-2004 17:50									#23
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NO! You fools! You can never get new rocky squares! Simply bang a mine+road on them and crawl 4 useful minerals back home. Leveling them takes so many turns...

Mirrors and Condesors add +1 energy or +1 nut to the base square IIRC.

They come too late unless you get the WP though.

-Jam

	20-03-2004 03:34									#24
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Observations I've made on forests:

Forests are 100% compatible with bunkers and sensors.

Forest will overgrow fungus.

There are terrain features compatible with forest but not the planting of forest: Condensers, E. Mirrors, Boreholes, & Monoliths. When forest grows onto these the results are varied: Forest on Condenser gives the Condenser's bonus to the forest's food output; forest on E. Mirror gives forest value + energy to adjacent solars, and forest on Borehole or Monolith does nothing (except possibly offset eco damage).

Forest will never grow onto rock, water, mines, farms, solars. I don't think it will grow onto bases or volcanoes.

Bases created on forest leave the forest intact and receive a 50% defensive bonus, but I don't believe it is cumulative with Perimeter Def.

Forest can continue to grow on rocky terrain if it was there before the terrain became rocky. I don't know the effects of a volcanic eruption.

Forest is destroyed by submersion, by sea level change "terrain wipe", and by fungus growth. Building any of the following destroys forest with a return of 5 minerals to the home base of the terraformer: Farm, Condenser, Solar, E. Mirror, Mine, Borehole, Fungus. "Destroy Enhancement" unfortunately does not return any minerals.

The only possible "problem" with forests are in the late-game they replace fungus. Forest on E. Mirror is usually desirable, but if not you can always add a farm.

	20-03-2004 03:48									#25
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You can get new rocky squares. There is a random chance new rocky squares will appear when the terrain height is changed.

	20-03-2004 05:53									#26
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the only time I'd ever level something is if it's got a nutrient resource on it. otherwise it's a waste of 4 potential minerals.

	20-03-2004 07:54									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski NO! You fools! You can never get new rocky squares! Simply bang a mine+road on them and crawl 4 useful minerals back home. Leveling them takes so many turns...

Thats what I do early-game, but mid to end game I like making borehole parks. 1 in every 4 squares unless there is an energy bonus - it will go on that bonus. Then all that energy is crawled back to my base. Energy pwns.
I'll have to test that compared to mass energy-parks though.

These rocky squares I level are away from my bases and crawled for energy - the mineral potential isn't even used.

	20-03-2004 17:51									#28
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Borehole parks are too slow. Slap down solar collectors and mirrors - sure the per-tile-ecs are lower, but the per-turn of terraforming is at least 200% more. B-hole parks are a false economy. Use cheaper specialised terraforming for maximum effiecnecy if you're going to crawl it. Why spend all those extra former-turns to make the tile produce 6 minerals too, if you're not going to use them?

-Jam

	20-03-2004 18:55									#29
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I'm just testing different strategies at the moment. Plus I like the look of a screen completely filled with boreholes.

Besides, terraforming efficency is rather moot in my current game. Each base I own had 4 clean superformers to its name (hover-chassis, psi-8 armour and costs heaps to build) and I have a massive number of bases. I have filled near half the map and I'm playing on the extra-large map size.

I gotta move up in skill level sometime.

	21-03-2004 17:06									#30
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I think so, Skanky That's a ridiculous number of highpowered formers. It must take forever to do your turns

-Jam