04-03-2004 21:39									#1
	base planting and mindworms with wealth and free market Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Ok starting to mess around with free market again and had some questions. First to anyone who hasn't messed around with free market and wealth before you are missing out! The energy credits you come up with are absolutley amazeing. Eight energy credits a turn from your base square! Especially in the early game this is huge!

Now some general questions about the planet rateing first. Does the negative planet rateing make worms appear more often? Does it have an effect on worm strength when you attack? When I started messing around with free market there seemed to be more worms attacking my colony pods as I started to expand and I actually lost a base to a worm. Something that has never happened before.

To more specific questions how do people deal with the worms attacking your base and your colony pods? Several opions exist as I see it. 1. don't change to free market or wealth (not an option here) 2. accept the fact that some colony pods will die and just keep building more (hmm this would really cut down on the number of cities you could plant in the early game) 3. Build millitary units to go along with your pods. (Here I usualy run into problems with the population growing before I can make another pod ok but annoying). 4. Research secrets of the human brain first then go onto IA (This would allow me to build trance units early which would be nice, but make IA come later which isn't)

What have other people tried are there other possibilities I've missed? Thanks a bunch!

Daniel

	04-03-2004 22:02									#2
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Yes, negative planet rating will increase the likehood that the native lifeform will rise against you.

I usually just accept that I'll lose occasional colony pods. If I'm at the point in the game where I have choppers, I often base several choppers in my outlying bases because that's where my colony pods tend to go to establish more bases. Those pods are often within the choppers' range so if a pod encounter a native, I dispatch choppers as many as needed to kill the native. If I'm done with moving pods and I have some choppers I haven't used yet, I often use them to scout out ahead within their range in a such way they can return to a nearest base to refuel before they use up all their movement points. Naturally if any native or enemy units are found, it's time to kill.

	04-03-2004 22:05									#3
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This just came to me. If I'm sending a pod to an isolated spot for some reason such as an island, I always make sure there's at least one military unit per pod in my transport ships. When I'm near the landing spot, I send out the military escort first and if it's ok, pod's next. The escort act as well, an escort and after the establishment of the base, it can become a temporary garrison until something more permanment come along.

	05-03-2004 01:14									#4
	Re: base planting and mindworms with wealth and free market Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by dacole Ok starting to mess around with free market again and had some questions. First to anyone who hasn't messed around with free market and wealth before you are missing out! The energy credits you come up with are absolutley amazeing. Eight energy credits a turn from your base square! Especially in the early game this is huge!

Another FM convert.

quote: Now some general questions about the planet rateing first. Does the negative planet rateing make worms appear more often?

I'm not so sure it does make the appearance of worms more frequent. I do beleive tho' that there isprolly a game mechanism that makes worms migrate to factions running negative planet rating. So in any event the real questionis do you have to deal with worms more often, yes.

quote: Does it have an effect on worm strength when you attack?

Yes when attacking you get a doubel whammy in FM/welath circumstances. -3 planet means a -30% penalty. Wealth carries a hit to morale. Since conventional unit verses native are resolved as morale vs morale verses morale comabt with attacker given a 3:2 advantage (on land) it becomes probelamatic attacking whilst running FM/wealth. Conversely defending does not caryy a penalty other than that associated with morale.

quote: When I started messing around with free market there seemed to be more worms attacking my colony pods as I started to expand and I actually lost a base to a worm. Something that has never happened before. To more specific questions how do people deal with the worms attacking your base and your colony pods? Several opions exist as I see it. 1. don't change to free market or wealth (not an option here) 2. accept the fact that some colony pods will die and just keep building more (hmm this would really cut down on the number of cities you could plant in the early game) 3. Build millitary units to go along with your pods. (Here I usualy run into problems with the population growing before I can make another pod ok but annoying). 4. Research secrets of the human brain first then go onto IA (This would allow me to build trance units early which would be nice, but make IA come later which isn't)

In the early game, I simply attempt to steer clear of large patches of fungus. Avoid the breeding grounds and fight if possible.

I don't typically build a military unit. Sometimes I'll preplant a sensor as sensors (at least to me) seem to scare away natives. Buidl the base onit and you can hold off pretty much any stray native.

In a pinch I'll upgrade a former to synth armored (eliinates the noncombat penalty) and move it into a size one base to defend against a worm.
[/QUOTE]

	05-03-2004 01:39									#5
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Its hard to kill worms effectively with the FM/wealth combo unless you have some artillery. Combine a couple of rover arty with a good sensor network. Your arty gets there in time to give a worm a bombardment or two before any old scout takes out the damaged worm. . .. In the earlier game before arty, I find you just have to accept some losses to worms as part of the cost of FM .. . its not that bad usually sicne you sacrifice a green scout sometimes to ensure your rover gets the kill ( and perhaps a morale upgrade)

The other thing that really helps is an empath unit, of course, or really any high morale unit. A commando or elite usually has enough of a morale advantage over most native life that it wins the vast majority of battles even with the 30% PLANET PENALTY

	05-03-2004 01:47									#6
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quote: I'm not so sure it does make the appearance of worms more frequent. I do beleive tho' that there isprolly a game mechanism that makes worms migrate to factions running negative planet rating. So in any event the real questionis do you have to deal with worms more often, yes.

I've definately seen worms move away from me when ive had a positive planet rating, even when i've had a pop at a base if my planet is high enough the locusts often just fly away ! contrasting to when running FM i often spot them with sensors quite far away from my bases heading straight for me.

	05-03-2004 11:54									#7
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"In a pinch I'll upgrade a former to synth armored (eliinates the noncombat penalty) and move it into a size one base to defend against a worm."

I'm pretty sure that even an unarmored former in a base defends against native life without a penalty, though it does suffer the -50% when out in the open. Furthermore, worms attack bases at a substantial penalty before 2150.

	05-03-2004 15:46									#8
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I armor and trance everything. It really cuts down on the FM worm damage.

	05-03-2004 21:25									#9
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I do the same, and upgrade crawlers to trance/silksteel when I pick up the techs. By then, I have so many crawlers, it creates a huge turgid mess for worms or enemies trying to attack..

The planet penalty for FM is almost laughable compared to the energy boost you get..

	06-03-2004 01:14									#10
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In my current game (my first on transcend!), I've deployed a "sensor net" around my home islands, composed of best armor/trance/radar trawlers, 2 -3 vessels deep in all directions. I have about 200 of the buggers, mostly commando.

The AI still occasionally attacks them directly, but mostly they try to rush past and hope I don't notice.

	06-03-2004 02:33									#11
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Chaos Theory:

quote: I'm pretty sure that even an unarmored former in a base defends against native life without a penalty, though it does suffer the -50% when out in the open. Furthermore, worms attack bases at a substantial penalty before 2150.

Didn't know that, Thank you

	06-03-2004 03:18									#12
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Shoot, I tried messing with Free Market and Wealth and even though the credits flow like water, the resulting mindworm attacks, fungal blooms and drone riots aren't worth it.

It's not fun when a fungal bloom happens and the fungal tiles all have 10 or so demon boils on them.

	06-03-2004 07:59									#13
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I've found that that only happens late game... when it's going ot happen anyway.

My God, Franky, do you have triple-digit eco-damage or something? I mean... ouch. What are you DOING do that poor planet? I've NEVER had any fungal bloom with more than about five worms of middle-to-high lifecycle at best earlier than when I start getting close enough to Transcendance to get the interludes for Kai (Or whoever) downlaoding himself to a computer.

Poor planet... I bet it needs a band-aid.

	06-03-2004 09:15									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan It's not fun when a fungal bloom happens and the fungal tiles all have 10 or so demon boils on them.

If you have a drop artillery or two , its a simple formula-- bombard them once or twice to knock their health down to about 10% or so and then watch a basic scout easily kill them.

Although I also wonder what you are doing to get SO many worms-- IS it atrocities because absent them I don't see how you would get so many worms ( assuming you are building treefarms and hybrid forests as a normal part of your game

	06-03-2004 23:40									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory I'm pretty sure that even an unarmored former in a base defends against native life without a penalty, though it does suffer the -50% when out in the open. Furthermore, worms attack bases at a substantial penalty before 2150.

Isn`t substantial penalty which allows all mind worms to be easily dispatched only until 2115 (-25percent for mind worms) or is there another penalty after that?

I am playing no transcend all the time and I am pretty sure that -25 percent penalty lasts until 2115.

	07-03-2004 13:33									#16
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All mindworms suffer grievously until 2115, but mindworms against bases also suffer substantially until 2150.

	07-03-2004 19:39									#17
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I once got around 25+ demon boils each in 4 squares and yes i had around 7 bases in that area with close to a thousand eco damage each, i was trying to drown the AI for a laugh

and besides the cash you get from them is awesome

	08-03-2004 00:44									#18
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One thing you can do when beelining to FM, instead of going for Inducstial Economics (wealth), instead research Social Psych first to get the Rec Commons (if you cannot trade for it). Until then if you run 20% psych you can still let most bases build to two population without drone riots, and you still have a better research rate then any other Economic choice! Then go for wealth, and then Secrects of the Human Mind for Trance Scouts - you'll need them against the mindworms .

	08-03-2004 10:47									#19
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In a multiplayer game, I usually do not tend to my worm defenses. I have formers around empty, FM cities, and I hold off mindworms with those or a few scattered units either built or found in unity pods. I don't research Trance for worm defense (though I pick it up at some point for the tech).

I run the risk of losing a few units or even a base or two, but if not, I have an edge on my opponent. If I were more conservative, I would lose ground to a more aggressive opponent.

Of course, this is a bad idea if the risk of worms is too high, so I need to pay attention to my borders and adjust my strategy to the native life threat, but usually being apathetic to the worm threat is the best course of action.

	09-03-2004 00:31									#20
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Creches give back a bit of Wealth's morale-depressing effect to units whose home base has a Creche. Further, when they are defending the Creche base, the defenders' morale is as good as, and sometimes better than it would be without the Wealth penalty due to the benefits the Creche provides.

Armored Probes are not a bad idea for base defenders if you are running FM/Wealth, since you would not be getting any police benefits from the regular unit anyway. Res-3 Armor would be especially good for that, once you get it, but I believe that the mere fact of being armored at all will improve your odds (no non-com penalty). In any case, a probe team's morale is not affected by the Wealth modifier, but by boosts from various techs, like PolyM, as well as the usual military facilities - so you can get a decent morale probe sometimes when you are able to produce only barely capable regular units.

If you have a Creche in the base, the armored probe's main advantage would be its freedom from support charges (and of course its natural probe functions), since a 'reasonable' morale regular defender would not be hindered by the Wealth penalty and would be cheaper to build, so one might use the armored probes to occupy relatively new bases and the regular ones once you have built a Creche (which you will want to do reasonably soon), moving the armored probe defender further out to the frontier.

	09-03-2004 07:05									#21
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Well, I did use artillery to try and take care of them, and the creds you get from them are awesome!

But as pointed out, sooner or later in the game you can only destroy 1 or 2 units. And 1 unit taking on 50 or so demon boils is going to lose. Usually most of my units are away on some campaign to destroy another faction (I deal with Drone riots by nerve stapling them-atrocities repealed)

Weird thing is that I try to "appease" Planet by building all this eco-friendly stuff, and she pays me back by destroying my Condensers and all that other good stuff. A 5 tile fungal bloom results in the same thing Lazerus describes. I've seen a base rated 25 reduced to 8 or so....for some reason they don't destroy the base.

Sometimes the attacks come after me just having 1 borehole.....I usually can't build my planetbusters cause I'm choking on fungus.

That's why I run Planned or Green. Free Market is the work of the devil!

	09-03-2004 11:49									#22
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Artillery should be able to destroy the vast majority of native life in any given tile. Towards the end game, keeping 3 SAM string artillery in each base for worm defense seems entirely reasonable. One unit taking on 50 demon boil mindworms is hardly guaranteed to lose since collateral damage against native life is total. On the other hand, locusts of chiron do not suffer collateral damage, so you need artillery to blast them to pieces.

A base could be reduced to size 8 from 25 by 17 locusts. Each native life unit that enters an empty base of yours blows up one building and kills a population unit.

For what it's worth, I find that in the late game, Planned and Green give me more ecodamage than FM. The reason is that by that time fungus tiles are producing 2 or 3 minerals, so that if I run non-FM, I can work those tiles and produce plenty of minerals. What happens to me is that each pop makes the next more likely until the planet floods.

	10-03-2004 08:03									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Starfarer ...My God, Franky, do you have triple-digit eco-damage or something? I mean... ouch. What are you DOING do that poor planet? I've NEVER had any fungal bloom with more than about five worms of middle-to-high lifecycle at best earlier than when I start getting close enough to Transcendance....

When I get close to Transcendance, sometimes I get major worm hordes that make Franky's situation look positively tame.

My outbreaks are late-game surprises. I have a decent planet rating, and all my terrain has been converted to forests. Furthermore, I have zero improvements that boost minerals (not counting recycling tanks.) I've committed no atrocities and launched no planet busters etc etc.

Yet quite suddenly, about 10 cities per turn experience fungal blooms with 30-50 demon boils per square. I'm not kidding. Yet sometimes my planet rating is so high that I actually capture 30+ worms at a stroke. Unhappily this can cause the spontaneous disbanding of expensive units supported by the city.

Sometimes, I'll deviously walk these captured worms into my ally's back yard, then release them "into the wild".

What triggers these ridiculous outbreaks?
- Start with enormous cities surrounded by forests, which produce alot of minerals.
- Add certain late-game Secret Projects, and tons of mining satellites, to further boost mineral production.

To add insult to injury.... at this point in the game, fungus generates more minerals than forests, so each outbreak makes the situation even worse.

I got so sick of this crap that I tweaked the game to reduce the rate of global warming.

	11-03-2004 00:35									#24
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Roadrash, sounds like you are too clean for your own good.

I didn't see any references in your post to the usual methods people use to allow for hign min production without the high ecodamage; perhaps you are following that approach and are just producing humongous quantities of mins, but I'm guessing that you have minimized the ecodamage in the early/mid game and built most of the potential ecodamage-reducing facilities before getting your first >pop<. If so, the solution would have been to have been to force a >pop< before building your TFs, HFs, CPs, etc. (or to have delayed them until after the first >pop<) in order for them to have the beneficial effect on ecodamage.

As to why it happens all of a sudden, whether or not you have mitigated the ecodamage as above, it is likely the formula expressing itself - it has some factors like your number-of-techs that get pretty high as the game goes on, so once it crosses over into positive ecodamage, each extra min will get multiplied pretty heavily.

	11-03-2004 03:28									#25
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quote: Originally posted by johndmuller Roadrash, sounds like you are too clean for your own good. .

I agree with Johnd, you must not have ensured a mineral pop before building the eco-facilities.

Assuming clean minerals at 16, you can trigger say 4 pops. and then lets assume a dozen bases with a treefarm and a HF, bringing you to 44 clean minerals.

Why anyone would need more than that in a base in the late game ( when sats can feed and specialists and energy are abundant) would be beyond me.


MY advice-- stop the mineral satellites and just put up more and more energy ones. Also consider a few food sats and specialists.

Other than that . . . make sure to cause a fungal bloom early so that all your eco-facilities have their full effect. Building them before the bloom is crippling their effect

	13-03-2004 05:19									#26
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quote: MY advice-- stop the mineral satellites and just put up more and more energy ones. Also consider a few food sats and specialists.

I thought that I'd read somewhere that mineral satellites didn't contribute to eco-damage - I don't see any reference to them in either the Datalinks' Ecology section or Ned's eco-damage write-up. Am I missing something?

	17-03-2004 18:46									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory Artillery should be able to destroy the vast majority of native life in any given tile. Towards the end game, keeping 3 SAM string artillery in each base for worm defense seems entirely reasonable. One unit taking on 50 demon boil mindworms is hardly guaranteed to lose since collateral damage against native life is total. On the other hand, locusts of chiron do not suffer collateral damage, so you need artillery to blast them to pieces. A base could be reduced to size 8 from 25 by 17 locusts. Each native life unit that enters an empty base of yours blows up one building and kills a population unit. For what it's worth, I find that in the late game, Planned and Green give me more ecodamage than FM. The reason is that by that time fungus tiles are producing 2 or 3 minerals, so that if I run non-FM, I can work those tiles and produce plenty of minerals. What happens to me is that each pop makes the next more likely until the planet floods.

When large stacks of native life appear it sometimes pays to self destruct a high attack value unit next to the native stack to destroy it. Copters or needles are great for this, as they have plenty of movement to get into position and can fly over sea squares with no problems.

	17-03-2004 20:47									#28
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quote: Originally posted by starfish I thought that I'd read somewhere that mineral satellites didn't contribute to eco-damage - I don't see any reference to them in either the Datalinks' Ecology section or Ned's eco-damage write-up. Am I missing something?

Nope-- my comment was based on:

1. My belief that having massive mineral production is a waste ( even if completely clean)-- With enough energy and specialists you can rush everything anyway.

2. MY own preference for food and energy satellites combined with specialists as a way to drive research. You can work a few less tiles and produce a few less minerals and avoid ecodamage if you wish

	18-03-2004 02:41									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber 1. My belief that having massive mineral production is a waste ( even if completely clean)-- With enough energy and specialists you can rush everything anyway.

True but this lowers your energy score.

My experiences with massive end-game worms are due entirely to a single Secret Project: the one giving +2 minerals per base. It seems preposterous that those two extra minerals would cause 30+ worms per base. But it happens to me every time.

I'm starting to wonder if those 2 minerals are added in a wierd way that skews the normal ecodamage calculations.

	18-03-2004 08:41									#30
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I generally build large number of centauri preserves after the first >pop< so I have a large amount of free minerals before any eco damage occurs.