06-03-2004 07:04									#31
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I expect Apple to be suing Nullsoft within several weeks.

Then I expect the courts to tell Apple to go **** themselves.

	06-03-2004 07:12									#32
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quote: Originally posted by reismark I expect Apple to be suing Nullsoft within several weeks. Then I expect the courts to tell Apple to go **** themselves.

Why would they?

Apple makes nothing from itunes other than through the store. If people want to buy music for their ipod, they have to use the store and that means using itunes. But the store only exists to sell ipods - it doesn't make any money.

If more people are going to buy ipods now that their favourite player, Winamp, is compatible with them, that seems a win for Apple.

	06-03-2004 09:05									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Uggerly. Terrible interface.

So change it? What exactly is wrong with it?

quote: No rendezvous music sharing IIRC

Seeing how Rendezvous is a proprietary Apple thing...no.

	06-03-2004 09:07									#34
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 That interface is really, really ugly looking. Looks unweildly too. The itunes interface just works, plain and simple. Everything I want is fullfilled by it. Everything.

You don't demand that your music player takes up a huge amount of screen real-estate? Or how about the visualizations on par with what we saw in the late 90s on PCs?

If you ask me, the iTunes interface is horrid. Which isn't so bad in and of itself, except unlike Winamp, you can't skin iTunes.

Winamp supports freeform skinning. You don't like the interface, then make your own... It's possible to completely replicate iTunes UI if anyone so chooses. Nobody is that dumb, though.

	06-03-2004 09:36									#35
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So then recommend me a player. First and foremost of concerns is sound quality. After that, price, and then interface. I could care less about how the thing looks or how "thin" it is. Is the Dell the best in this regard?

	06-03-2004 09:40									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So then recommend me a player. First and foremost of concerns is sound quality. After that, price, and then interface. I could care less about how the thing looks or how "thin" it is. Is the Dell the best in this regard?

The Nomad Zens are the best in sound quality (98 dB SNR).

The Dell Jukeboxes are 94 or 96 dB SNR (can't recall which).

The iPods are 92 dB SNR.

The Dell Jukeboxes are VERY similar to the Zens, as it's based off of them. Dell's substituted from cheaper DSP parts, and cost more, but come with a longer warranty.

In terms of price:
Zen < Jukebox < iPod

In terms of interface, that's entirely subjective. I have a Zen and have zero problems with it. Everything is painfully easy to do, and -- most importantly -- I can play/pause and change tracks by blindly putting my hand in my pocket and pressing the buttons on the side. It's very painful to do that with an iPod, and that's primarily how I change songs...

	06-03-2004 09:46									#37
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Boris. Asher thinks that SNR ratings are conclusive for sound quality.


Go to a shop and listen to a few.

	06-03-2004 09:46									#38
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quote: Asher thinks that SNR ratings are conclusive for sound quality.

Well I'd think the ratio of sound to noise would be important.

	06-03-2004 09:50									#39
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So the only advantage to the Dell over the Zen seems to be the warranty, eh?

Hmmm, Zen seems to be a good choice. I'd never get an iPod. I've played with my roommate's, don't like the interface at all.

	06-03-2004 09:55									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Boris. Asher thinks that SNR ratings are conclusive for sound quality. Go to a shop and listen to a few.

Every single review that compares the two also concludes that the Zen sounds better.

Look: I know you think you're some audiophile, but you're a moron when it comes to anything digital.

MP3 Players are purely digital device, up to the headphone jack. At that point, it's outside of the scope of the player and in the realm of the headphone.

Inside the player, since it is a purely digital system, we can use purely digital metrics such as the Signal-to-Noise ratio to identify how "pure" the sound is. It can be accurately and repeatedly measured for digital devices, and the results are always within the margin of error.

SNR is the predominant quality indicator for a purely digital device.

	06-03-2004 10:05									#41
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quote: So the only advantage to the Dell over the Zen seems to be the warranty, eh?

Personally I think the Dell controls are better... but that's a YMMV thing.

	06-03-2004 10:09									#42
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YMMV?

	06-03-2004 10:18									#43
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Your Milage May Vary.

	06-03-2004 10:21									#44
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EDIT: Must remember to refresh before replying occasionally.

	06-03-2004 10:39									#45
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Some subjective audio quality reviews for Aggie:

http://www.tomshardware.com/mobile/.../zen_nx-02.html

quote: But where Creative Labs comes out tops is, as ever, in the quality of its playback. Is this not as it should be for a device this expensive? We tested it with WAV 16/44 and MP3 192kbps. The rendering is perfectly neutral with the standard setting. You get the entire spectrum with no parasite noise. Creative claims an excellent SNR of 98dB which we did not measure but are prepared to believe. Hooked up to a high-end sound system (H/K amplifier, 106dB tower speakers), there was practically no background noise, even with the volume turned up high, and no sound transferred from one channel to another. ... Our conclusion is that the Creative Labs Zen NX is the best-designed portable player around. Its perfectly acceptable size, gigantic storage capacity, good looks, good ergonomics and, above all, outstanding quality playback make this the best device of its kind on the market.

Note that the Zen NX has been replaced with the Zen Xtra, which has a larger screen and blue backlight. Zens also have removable harddrives and batteries, the iPod has neither of these.

Also see a bunch of subjective test results: http://www.ipodlounge.com/forums/sh...=&threadid=8168

quote: the way they have implemented the EAX (Equaliser) settings is a hell of a lot more advanced, and in my humble opinion sounds a #### site better, I must stress, I'm not talking about overall sound quality, just the quality of the built in DSP that the Zen has. I mean you set garage, or bathroom, or concert hall, and by god it actually sounds like you're really there. Then again, I guess Creative's business has always been sound cards, so no real surprise there.

...

quote: Right battery life, a mute point for most of us, and unfortunately the zen is in a league of it's own here. I haven't even fully charged the zen's battery, it's status is pretty much full, I've been hammering all the menu options over and over again, skipping tracks like there's no tomorrow, full volume with every possible DSP effect I can throw at it, getting onto 4hrs now and the battery hasn't even gone off full yet. So thats really pleasing. In stark contrast, an hour's heavy playing in the menu system of the Pod will have the batter dropping down to 3, further scanning of songs, and heaven forbid I smack the bass boost on, and the battery will be on 1 before I even have a chance to think why the hell I didn't bring the charger out with me. I KNOW people say if you leave it on a long playlist, don't change the track, no backlight, no equaliser, blahblahblah, it probably would reach 8hrs, BUT if I can hammer the zen for 4hrs solid and have the hard drive spinning up every few seconds and it still hasn't left full charge, apple are doing something wrong, yet again, firmware update please !

http://www.ipodlounge.com/forums/sh...=&threadid=9265

quote: the iPod 3gen has inferiour sound quality compared to most other MP3 players and other portables. The iPod (3rd Gen) has a bit canned/harsh sound, whereas other devices sound more open, solid, airy and relaxed (some sources say the 2nd gen sounds better).

	06-03-2004 17:42									#46
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Stereophile endorsed the ipod. You do know Stereophile magazine, don't you? It can't be bad if those guys liked it (although they have snobbish ideas about formats).

Case closed.

http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcomponents/934/

	06-03-2004 17:51									#47
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Stereophile never compared the iPod to any other player.

	06-03-2004 18:01									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Every single review that compares the two also concludes that the Zen sounds better. Look: I know you think you're some audiophile, but you're a moron when it comes to anything digital. MP3 Players are purely digital device, up to the headphone jack. At that point, it's outside of the scope of the player and in the realm of the headphone. Inside the player, since it is a purely digital system, we can use purely digital metrics such as the Signal-to-Noise ratio to identify how "pure" the sound is. It can be accurately and repeatedly measured for digital devices, and the results are always within the margin of error. SNR is the predominant quality indicator for a purely digital device.

What about the DAC?

You total ****ing moron. Some techie....

Anyway, for those that care about this sort of thing

http://www.stereophile.com/budgetco...934/index5.html

quote: The iPod's measured behavior is better than many CD players—ironic, considering that most of the time it will be used to play MP3 and AAC files, which will not immediately benefit from such good performance. But if you're willing to trade off maximum playing time against the ability to play uncompressed AIFF or WAV files, the iPod will do an excellent job of decoding them. Excellent, cost-effective audio engineering from an unexpected source.—John Atkinson

	06-03-2004 18:11									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Zopperoni Stereophile never compared the iPod to any other player.

So? They actually bothered to review it and were reasonably impressed. If audio geeks like them think the ipod is OK, it works for me. Stereophile isn't known as a tolerant magazine.

The fact remains that I have nowhere said that the ipod has superior audio quality to the Zen. I simply don't know, since I haven't listened to both. And I wouldn't be prepared to say until I had.

What I am disputing is Asher's moronic idea that SNR is the sole determinant of audio quality. Given his assertion that everything up to the headphone jack is digital (which surprisingly includes the digital to analogue converter and the resulting analogue signal fed to the output device) I think his level of audio knowledge has been exposed.

	06-03-2004 18:25									#50
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Audiogeeks aren't normal though, are they? They don't like music, they like to rub their crotches on the matt-black casing of their Nautilus speakers.

Now I love music. This means that my hearing is so fundamentally buggered by decades of rock'n'roll that I'm incapable of telling the difference between the sound qualities on most products. In fact I'm push to tell the difference between CD and tape.

In short, that's why I have sex occasionally, and buy vinyl (not only to wear).

Thank you.

	06-03-2004 18:27									#51
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quote: WMA is still the best audio codec out there.

Still it isn't nearly as popular as MP3. I hardly know anyone who actually uses WMA instead of MP3. And on all FXP-boards and P2P-networks MP3 collections VASTLY outnumber WMA collections. WMA might be better than MP3, it isn't nearly as popular, or universally supported (as iPod and other players clearly show). MP3 is still the only real and universal standard for music files.

	06-03-2004 18:29									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Audiogeeks aren't normal though, are they? They don't like music, they like to rub their crotches on the matt-black casing of their Nautilus speakers.

I once had a few hours with a pair of Nautilus. Weird looking but nice sound. Not as good as Electrostatic speakers though.

	06-03-2004 22:42									#53
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Agathon, please explain again why this interface is uglier than your stupid mac one. Not that I even ever use the media library anyway. I'm much more inclined to just right click on the folder I want and choose play.

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	06-03-2004 23:03									#54
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If you need to ask.....

	06-03-2004 23:19									#55
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mp3? wma?

oh, you mean ogg? gotcha.

	06-03-2004 23:20									#56
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and there's no accounting for taste. i personally don't enjoy itunes' candyland interface, but then again, it's not like i enjoy window's fisherprice look, either.

	06-03-2004 23:23									#57
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my winamp and xmms both have well over 6500 files to deal with, and they handle it admirably.

as far as sound quality...

if it's good enough to drown out the noise of really loud and revolting amorous relations coming from the dorm room right next door, while not having any staticking at either end of the spectrum, it's good enough for me.

	06-03-2004 23:24									#58
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and why i don't wan't an ipod.

everybody has them now.

where's the snob appeal, huh? tell me!

	06-03-2004 23:25									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon What I am disputing is Asher's moronic idea that SNR is the sole determinant of audio quality.

I've never said that. I've said SNR is the predominant metric for digital audio quality.

Once again, the philosopher stumbles with a basic argument.

quote: Given his assertion that everything up to the headphone jack is digital (which surprisingly includes the digital to analogue converter and the resulting analogue signal fed to the output device) I think his level of audio knowledge has been exposed.

Actually, you'll find I said:

quote: MP3 Players are purely digital device, up to the headphone jack.

"Up To" != "Up Through".

By the way, DACs are digital circuits, Einstein. I've programmed a driver for one and designed a rudimentary DAC last year, so I think I'm at least somewhat qualified to talk about how it works...

The analogue part is fed to the headphone jack, which I've already said is not digital. But apparently, your reading comprehension skills are not up to snuff.

(Actually, the Zen has dual headphone jacks: digital and analog, though I personally still use the analog jack)

	06-03-2004 23:31									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Still it isn't nearly as popular as MP3. I hardly know anyone who actually uses WMA instead of MP3. And on all FXP-boards and P2P-networks MP3 collections VASTLY outnumber WMA collections. WMA might be better than MP3, it isn't nearly as popular, or universally supported (as iPod and other players clearly show). MP3 is still the only real and universal standard for music files.

What does popularity with users matter? Who can't play WMA files these days?

I think every single portable music player EXCEPT the iPod supports WMA. Even modern DVD players support WMA and MP3 for music playback.

And seeing as how Windows Media was chosen for HD-DVD, I think it'll get even more popular.