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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
No. That's a straw man. I never said that. My claim is that the science is either not yet sufficiently advanced, or perhaps never will be (I'll leave that as an open question), to determine heard audio quality. |
Which is absurd when what we're talking about is a stream of 1s and 0s and how much those 1s and 0s actually match what's being outputted. Pattern matching and differentiating between the original signal and outputted signal is very much a science.
At the point where the headphone gets it is where things start to get subjective, as it's analog. But any headphones can be used on any player.
quote:
It makes no difference. You will please note that the excerpts are from a comparison of DACs (and DACs alone), which both the Zen and the ipod have. Your claim was that, when it comes to specifically digital devices, that heard audio quality either can be trumped by stats or that stats take the dominant role. As you can see from this review, that is most definitely not the case, because that's not how people test hi-fi equipment. |
Actually that is patently NOT my claim. If you had taken the time to read the content of the posts, you might be able to see that.
When you have no access to both units, you have access to scientific measurements and other people's subjective reviews. None of the above favor the iPod in any way. Of course, you can continue this useless tirade about how "REAL AUDIOPHILES" review things, but it's a moot point because you're missing the entire argument for the sake of your wimpering strawman.
quote:
Would you buy hi-fi equipment based on what someone else had heard? Jesus, I would [i]never[/i[ buy audio equipment online without having heard it first - nor would any sensible person. |
No sensible person would buy an iPod, period. Crap battery life, high price, poor on-the-go interface for pocket use... 
quote:
Notice that nowhere in this thread have I discounted the possibility that the Zen may indeed sound better than the ipod. I've just said that buyers should test them for themselves. |
That's a ridiculous argument, because it's a "safe" and "common sense" argument that usually doesn't work in the real world. All the stores around here that sell iPods -- Future Shop, Compusmart, Memory Express, etc. -- NONE of these have sample units out so you can compare each one. Further, if stores DO have sample units, they're usually with crap and inconsistent headphones so you really can't tell what the audio quality would be with good Seinheisers.
quote:
Either admit that throwing around SNR ratios is next to useless in determining which player to buy, or stop making a fool of yourself. |
SNR are NOT useless, they're factually consistent with quality ratings, they're scientifically measured in a purely digital environment, and they're absolutely indicative of the resultant audio clarity. The fact that you have no frickin' clue how digital audio works and the insistence on arguing to the death on a position that is common sense -- yet infeasable in the real world -- is nothing but more fodder for me in my proclaimation of modern Philosophy students being so far out of the real world that they're rather useless...
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Which is absurd when what we're talking about is a stream of 1s and 0s and how much those 1s and 0s actually match what's being outputted. Pattern matching and differentiating between the original signal and outputted signal is very much a science. |
Nope. The performance of DACs is compared by heard audio quality. I just showed you that it is. Accept it.
quote:
At the point where the headphone gets it is where things start to get subjective, as it's analog. But any headphones can be used on any player. |
Nope. See above. Headphones, speakers, etc. just add more complication.
quote:
Actually that is patently NOT my claim. If you had taken the time to read the content of the posts, you might be able to see that. |
Trying to weasel out of your patently ridiculous position. 
quote:
When you have no access to both units, you have access to scientific measurements and other people's subjective reviews. None of the above favor the iPod in any way. Of course, you can continue this useless tirade about how "REAL AUDIOPHILES" review things, but it's a moot point because you're missing the entire argument for the sake of your wimpering strawman. |
When you have no access to both units, the rational thing to do is suspend judgement, as I have.
There is so much more to audio quality than SNR ratios that witholding judgement is the rational thing to do.
quote:
No sensible person would buy an iPod, period. Crap battery life, high price, poor on-the-go interface for pocket use... |
Another cheap shot because you've lost the argument.
Why not use the ipod's remote? 
quote:
That's a ridiculous argument, because it's a "safe" and "common sense" argument that usually doesn't work in the real world. All the stores around here that sell iPods -- Future Shop, Compusmart, Memory Express, etc. -- NONE of these have sample units out so you can compare each one. |
The shops didn't have discmans out when I went to try them out. I made them let me test various ones because I was the customer and I made it plain that a sale was dependent on my being able to test the equipment properly. They were free to refuse, but they were more interested in making a sale.
quote:
Further, if stores DO have sample units, they're usually with crap and inconsistent headphones so you really can't tell what the audio quality would be with good Seinheisers. |
It's "Sennheisers" and you take your own. 
quote:
SNR are NOT useless, they're factually consistent with quality ratings, they're scientifically measured in a purely digital environment, and they're absolutely indicative of the resultant audio clarity. |
They are ****ing well not - or at least not enough to be decisive on heard audio quality. If they were, hi-fi reviewers reviewing DACs would rely on them. But they don't - as I showed you. So you are either deluded or just being obtuse.
You said that DACs are part of your "purely digital environment" as you defined it. Hence it would make sense if what you said was generally accepted fact for reviewers to stop evaluating them on heard audio quality. But they don't.
quote:
The fact that you have no frickin' clue how digital audio works and the insistence on arguing to the death on a position that is common sense -- yet infeasable in the real world |
The word is "unfeasible" IIRC. And it's perfectly feasible. My hi-fi loving friends and I have managed to do it every time we've gone to buy audio equipment. Stores that refuse to allow testing, do not get our custom - because they are bad stores.
quote:
-- is nothing but more fodder for me in my proclaimation of modern Philosophy students being so far out of the real world that they're rather useless... |
Great. I win. You've resorted to cheap shots which have nothing to do with the issue at hand. You must be out of real arguments. 
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Nope. See above. Headphones, speakers, etc. just add more complication.
Trying to weasel out of your patently ridiculous position. |
AGAIN. For the last time. We're talking about the device itself -- not the headphones. The iPod and Zen are CLOSED SYSTEMS, minus the headphones. Since the same headphones can be used on both, this is left out of the comparison.
So talking about how "speakers, etc." add complication to this debate is YOUR patently ridiculous position.
iPods and Zens are purely digital up to the point of the headphone jack, where it is then in the realm of headphone quality. Your comparisons about analog vs digital audio are absurd, as it clearly does not apply here.
quote:
When you have no access to both units, the rational thing to do is suspend judgement, as I have.
There is so much more to audio quality than SNR ratios that witholding judgement is the rational thing to do. |
When you're shopping for a new player, like Boris is, you can't just "suspend judgement". When you're looking for a player with the best quality, the rational thing to do in absence of being able to compare the two side by side is to look at the sound clarity as measured by SNR, THD, and stereocross talk to name a view. Then you look at all the subjective reviews from other people online, who all conclude that the one with the theoretically clearer sound has -- get this -- clearer sound.
The rational thing to do at this point is to assume the one with the better specs and glowing reviews for audio quality in comparison to the iPod has higher audio quality.
Simple stuff to most people, incredibly confusing and convoluted to the esteemed Philosophical community at Apolyton...
quote:
Another cheap shot because you've lost the argument.
Why not use the ipod's remote? |
Because the cable freezes in cold weather to the point of becoming stiff and, eventually, not working. At least that's what happened to my friend's iPod's remote...
quote:
They are ****ing well not - or at least not enough to be decisive on heard audio quality. If they were, hi-fi reviewers reviewing DACs would rely on them. But they don't - as I showed you. So you are either deluded or just being obtuse.
You said that DACs are part of your "purely digital environment" as you defined it. Hence it would make sense if what you said was generally accepted fact for reviewers to stop evaluating them on heard audio quality. But they don't. |
Reviews of "hi-fi" equipment are fundamentally different from a closed system such as a portable music player. There are FAR more factors in an open system like a home theatre or complex system. Further, some audiophiles are simply condescending ******, not unlike most Philosophers I've met, who insist insane things like vinyl offers more fidelity than DVD-Audio or SACD.
I often ignore "audiophiles" and their opinions because seldom do what they say hold true in my experience.
quote:
Great. I win. You've resorted to cheap shots which have nothing to do with the issue at hand. You must be out of real arguments. |
They're not cheap shots, they're observations. After all, the only two people arguing against me are two Philosophy students, when other people like Imran can clearly see how you've been thrashed.
You completely dismiss the important of SNR and completely do not understand how it works, and in a valiant effort to save your ass and defend Apple from getting labeled as "bad quality", you say "you have to listen to it to know!". Which is something I've said is a good idea, but it's just not always possible.
It is rational that when someone asks online which has the best audio quality, the one with the superior specs AND with the unanimous consensus of reviewers saying it sounds better, probably sounds better.
Constructing an entire argument on "but but but, it may not sound any better to you!" is you being obtuse and weaseling out of the fact that Apple's overpriced fashion accessory is rather below average in terms of an audio player.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
If you can't accept that the only audio quality that matters is heard quality, then you aren't interested in it. |
And heard quality is determined by two things: the headphones and the player. Since we're arguing about the player, the headphones are irrelevent. Since the player is digital and deterministic, we can measure the audio quality without actually listening to the music.
Last edited by Kuciwalker on 07-03-2004 at 06:18
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Unfortunately you can't with enough precision to make tests worthwhile. That's why hi-fi magazines conduct listening tests of things like DACs and amplifiers, rather than relying on stats which miss the subtleties. |
Hi-Fi magazines do this because it's important in a system with a lot of variables. And, most importantly, to cater to the pompous asses such as yourself who don't trust dem new teknolagies.
Of course "listening" tests are most ideal. However, one thing that completely baffles me is you dismiss the actual measurements and analysis completely, as if they serve no purpose. THAT is the flaw with your argument.
Numbers such as SNR, THD, and crosstalk are very helpful in guaging audio fidelty when you have no access to a suitable sample environment.
The very fact remains that both the measurements (SNR, THD, crosstalk, etc) favor the Zen, as do any listening tests I've found online.
I therefore think it's a safe assumption to say that the Zen does sound better. End of story.
You pay more for an iPod, and get a less capable audio player that lasts a fraction of the time. Why? Because it's a fad.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
You can do it with COMPLETE precision because this is a digital (ie the values are discrete, and thus have a finite number of digits, and thus can be represented perfectly within a computer) and it is deterministic. You know exactly what is being fed to the earphones. |
Agathon's rather uncultured when it comes to technology. If he understood how exactly digital audio works, and then how digital audio players work, he'd understand why the measurements are accurate and relevant.
It reminds me of the same people who insist the LCD reviews that use measurements are "bullshit", when they're absolutely accurate.
For example, color curves and response rates...
Measurements like this are not only possible, but extraordinarily accurate. It's through these kinds of measurements that it was determined that the iPod's headphone jack was flawed in low-frequency response (or bass).
This would lend lots of credance to the people who complained that the iPod sounded rather "tinny" or "shallow" compared to the Zen.
But then again, in Agathon's world none of this means anything. After all, it's bullshit that's apparently not based on anything.
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mrmitchell
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Agathon is a philosophical dude, and cannot accept that sound quality can be discussed without the sound.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
You really are a hopeless cretin. When it comes to hi fidelity audio reproduction, listening tests are essential. If they weren't, people could just report the graphs and be done with it. |
The difference is, of course, in these tests and in this discussion we're not concerned with the headphones at all -- simply the digital device and how it processes music.
And as a Philosopher, I'm sure you're aware that it is not an argument to say "the magazines I read always do listening tests, ergo SNR mean nothing"...
I want you to do something for me, Agathon.
Tell me what SNR is and what it measures.
Then tell me how it is measured.
Then, taking into account the former two tasks, tell me how it's not related to audio fidelity, and why.
But, as an aside, I am most truly amazed at how you consistently use strawmen, even after being corrected. I've said about a dozen times now that it is ideal to listen and compare the devices under identical circumstances.
I've ALSO said -- about a dozen times now -- that this is not realistic for most consumers. The vast majority of stores do not have sample units, and even then they'll likely have different music and sound on each, with different headphones.
So telling people to ignore EVERYTHING (internet testamonials, scientific measurements) regarding audio quality and instead only rely on the said unrealistic conditions is obtuse and ridiculous.
Your entire argument is built upon strawmen and idiocy, and nothing more.
Last edited by Asher on 07-03-2004 at 09:28
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07-03-2004 01:41
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