06-03-2004 08:05									#1
	Sinking GCA Galley Before Palace Jump? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Pertinent bit of chat:

quote: Arnelos> another issue... are we attacking the GCA galley? Arnelos> Trip? Trip> dunno Arnelos> we need to decide that Arnelos> we're in a position to kill that galley right now... should we do so? Arnelos> let's check where the discussion was on that 2 turns ago * Arnelos goes to the forum Trip> we can kill it with no WW issues Trip> all our cities are small enough to handle the hit for the next 5 turns Arnelos> the question is whether we can rely on it being only 5 turns, of course Arnelos> the other question is whether it is WORTH killing the GCA galley or if we should try to get them to attack us Kloreep> So if we attack, we do get a 1-unhappiness hit? Arnelos> if we only had 3 galleys... we could trap them Beta> yup - 3 would do it. Arnelos> point is... is it worth attacking them when they would give us a WW bonus should they attack us? Kloreep> Where's that spear? Kloreep> On the boat? Arnelos> I presume Trip> wait Trip> if we attack them, there might be no WW hit anyways Arnelos> why? Trip> going to peace reduces the amount of WW you suffer Arnelos> yes, but not entirely Trip> no, but usually to a level where it doesn't affect you any more Trip> I'd be willing to risk it Kloreep> Doesn't it take a while for the old WW to drain off? Trip> Klo: whe you make peace it reduces the current WW by a certain amount automatically Arnelos> hmm... It wouldd not be kosher to test that, so we're stuck with it being a risky thing to do without knowing for sure Trip> well, Lucky has to abide by the 5-turns again Trip> the only reason he complained before was because of our cities Trip> once we sink that Galley they'll have NO excuse not to make peace Arnelos> unless they use suicide galleys to approach us, Trip Arnelos> they still have a number of galleys on their side Arnelos> this could go on forever Kloreep> What's the downside to letting it stay? Other than the annoyance of the spear Trip> at least 3 of them were down by CGN Arnelos> Trip - true Trip> Klo: just to simplify things we REALLY should get rid of it Trip> we won't have to cover all those coastal tiles any more Trip> we'll have more to consolidate in the chokepoints Trip> we'll have more barb hunters Trip> our Galleys can do other things Trip> etc. etc. Trip> lots more flexibility Trip> like I said, I think sinking it is a good idea Arnelos> I'm actually of a similar opinion, just being the devil's advocate right now Arnelos> As I see it, potential downside of sinking it is if GCA can manage to abuse the 5-turn rule to maintain war with us again in the future Arnelos> which would require suicide galleys Kloreep> Well, we're going to have to sink it eventually Kloreep> Might as well do it now Kloreep> Even if there is a WW hit, best to do it while we can more easily take it Arnelos> Kloreep - yes, we will eventually have to sink it regardless... that's the best argument in favor... doing it now offers a reasonable chance that it gets sunk and we only have 5 turns of war since GCA is busy elsewhere for now Arnelos> then if GCA wants to restart a war, they have to do it themselves Kloreep> I vote for attacking Arnelos> THE ALMIGHTY QUICKPOLL(tm)! Arnelos> Sink GCA galley? Yes (1), No (2), Throw some bananas at it and just hope it sinks (3) Kloreep> I say we try the bananas first and then attack if that fails Kloreep> 1 Trip> 2 Trip> hold on Trip> if there *IS* war weariness... Trip> then it will slow down our Palace jump... Kloreep> Ack Trip> AP will be size 6 in 3 turns Arnelos> eek! Arnelos> damn good reason not to do it Kloreep> 2 Arnelos> hmm... Arnelos> posting something in the forum on this Trip> if there *IS* WW, then that's be bad bad news Beta> How about forcing it to move up the coast - while we bring in a thrid galley. Arnelos> we can always delay a turn Trip> we can move the Galley next to Equil a bit further east Trip> they won't be able to move the Galley to a point where we wouldn't have a Galley ready to sink it Trip> chances are we'll be able to sink it with 1 only :P Beta> Move galleys to 3 and 6 of its current position. Arnelos> making a chatlog for the forum of this Arnelos> btw... I am of the opinion that we delay playing of the turn for this to be hashed out in the forum Trip> yes Trip> at least a turn Arnelos> right Arnelos> so we can probably play the turn tomorrow Arnelos> give some time for people to comment on this Trip> well Trip> there's really no way that we can risk it Trip> due to AP

I have a screenshot, but every time I try to upload it I get a SQL error... seems that Apolyton is having issues again. I'll upload it as soon as it lets me.

Opinions from the team?

	06-03-2004 08:08									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Leave it where it is. No unit warping is available so one lone spearman on a galley won't help their team at all. Don't do anything to give Lucky another chance to sink us in war weariness.

	06-03-2004 09:05									#3
	Put an end to popups!

No, to attacking the galley.


What is it with you guys & that galley ???

	06-03-2004 09:13									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Let it be.

We have our peace. Let's give WW reduction a chance to fully take place.

--Togas

	06-03-2004 09:40									#5
	Remove this text

I agree that we should leave it alone.

Why not have CFC kill it if it really bothers us?

If not, we can always pull back from the shores in order to let barb camps appear. Once they appear anywhere along the shore, barb Galley's start to pop up soon after. At only 1/5, GCA's Galley won't last long.

	06-03-2004 09:45									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel No, to attacking the galley. What is it with you guys & that galley ???

As Trip put it:

quote: Trip> Klo: just to simplify things we REALLY should get rid of it Trip> we won't have to cover all those coastal tiles any more Trip> we'll have more to consolidate in the chokepoints Trip> we'll have more barb hunters Trip> our Galleys can do other things Trip> etc. etc. Trip> lots more flexibility Trip> like I said, I think sinking it is a good idea

His argument is correct. There are better things to be doing with a sizable chunk of our military than standing around on internal lake coastal tiles and better things to be doing with our galleys than swimming around the internal lake chasing this one stupid galley. At the soonest available opportunity, we should sink that galley so that we can reorganize our military forces into other locations for other missions.

The reason not to do it NOW, in my opinion, is that if it causes increased WW, that could cause a delay to the palace jump. I want that galley dead as soon as possible, but I'd rather not take the risk of the WW until the palace jump is complete.

	06-03-2004 10:26									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, it won't delay the palace jump, but it will slow the growth up to size 7 and cause me to add more workers to the city. It will also have effects on our productivity after the move, as I won't be able to use as many sheild tiles so that I can have food to support the additional specialist.

As for moving back from the lake edge, that might not be a bad idea, as we are rapidly removing potenial barb generation sites. one area, around where WWNN is at is one of the last places that we are going to be filling up. We can try to let a Barb Hut spring up there, and even keep it around as long as possible, so that it builds as many barb gallies as is possible. I only ask that the workers I send through there are protected....

MoI E_T

	06-03-2004 15:19									#8
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by E_T Well, it won't delay the palace jump, but it will slow the growth up to size 7 and cause me to add more workers to the city. It will also have effects on our productivity after the move, as I won't be able to use as many sheild tiles so that I can have food to support the additional specialist. As for moving back from the lake edge, that might not be a bad idea, as we are rapidly removing potenial barb generation sites. one area, around where WWNN is at is one of the last places that we are going to be filling up. We can try to let a Barb Hut spring up there, and even keep it around as long as possible, so that it builds as many barb gallies as is possible. I only ask that the workers I send through there are protected.... MoI E_T

Im with E_T and BF on this one, let the barbs do our dirty work and then we dont have to deal with that a$$hole and all his bull$hit any longer.

*con is still hoping he actually gets hit by that semi truck MZ wished on him*

	06-03-2004 15:56									#9
	Tired of ads?

All we are saying is give peace a chance.

	06-03-2004 16:58									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

They can't hurt us with one wounded galley and a spear. It's not worth potential WW effects just to kill it. After potential WW residual effects have worn off and the Palace jump is complete, go ahead and kill it.

	06-03-2004 17:01									#11
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel No, to attacking the galley. What is it with you guys & that galley ??? As Trip put it: quote: Trip> Klo: just to simplify things we REALLY should get rid of it Trip> we won't have to cover all those coastal tiles any more Trip> we'll have more to consolidate in the chokepoints Trip> we'll have more barb hunters Trip> our Galleys can do other things Trip> etc. etc. Trip> lots more flexibility Trip> like I said, I think sinking it is a good idea His argument is correct. There are better things to be doing with a sizable chunk of our military than standing around on internal lake coastal tiles and better things to be doing with our galleys than swimming around the internal lake chasing this one stupid galley. At the soonest available opportunity, we should sink that galley so that we can reorganize our military forces into other locations for other missions. The reason not to do it NOW, in my opinion, is that if it causes increased WW, that could cause a delay to the palace jump. I want that galley dead as soon as possible, but I'd rather not take the risk of the WW until the palace jump is complete.

Bah......I still dont buy this argument.

We have a whole nation next door.
Who can build galleys in our lake.
And can drop a hell of a lot more scarier things than 1 elite spearman.

Even if you believe we have nothing to fear from CFC, surely we wouldnt be leaving our entire lake coast undefended ???
Just as insurance at least ???


Even if that galley was gone, we must have some defenders in the area in case CFC does something stupid. Surely these defenders can handle 1 elite spearman ??

	06-03-2004 17:33									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

Personally, I'd rather have our spare units guarding LZs on the EXTERIOR coasts of our continent where GWT/GCA might make a landing than the INTERIOR coasts where only CFC would do so.

	06-03-2004 18:06									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Once we get calvary its a moot point until amphibous war. They will have to land then attack/pillage. Calvary in the choke points + in the core can reach any point on our road network in 1 turn.


As for the galley leave it. Personally I really like the idea of letting barbs finish them off :P Worse they can do is land, and cause a war via pillage or such giving us 1 lost tile improvement + WW. If we attack them we force the WW ourselves so its a moot point.

	06-03-2004 18:12									#14
	Put an end to popups!

The idea of just letting them land if they want to has some merit. If they're going to attack us, let 'em... it's one lousy spearman we can easily kill if it actually ATTACKS something. If it pillages something, wervdon is correct.

The point I'm making here is that keeping all of these units guarding our INTERIOR coastline (many of them OFF of our road network...) is rather wasteful. I'd prefer to move most of them to more useful LZ guarding locations on the EXTERIOR coastline.

If we also want to try the barb galley gambit, that's something we could take a shot at... of course, if there's a barb camp, what stops GCA from landing the spear to kill the barb camp and getting 25 free gold?

Eventually, either we or CFC are probably going to just kill that stupid galley. For now, however, at least it and the spearman are wasting 2 gpt in GCA income. That said, while GCA wasting 2 gpt is great and all, that's an exceedingly minor thing.

	06-03-2004 22:30									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

We just managed to get peace with them. Now we are thinking about restarting war???

No thanks.

-Arrian

	07-03-2004 01:18									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

leave it. no more war. Peace in our time!