06-03-2004 03:21									#1
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Not that I think you're cheating, but . . . . One would think that the other factions are owed the explanation, as would be the case in any other game, or do you think that the gods need extra time to whitewash this one ?

	06-03-2004 06:54									#2
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I have gotten clearance to post the reason:
Googlie ruled several months back that using parallel turns to test out AI diplomacy responses was allowed (that's the only reason they may be used though ). Thus tests from our Military Function showed that as our probe skimship approached Angel territory, we would be contacted by Roze, and she would ask a sum of credits. If we refused, she would declare war on us. As we didn't want war with the Angels in these tense times, we decided to pay her off. When I played the official turn though and Roze contacted me, she asked me to declare war on the Hive. I had not been warned this would happen, so under the knowledge that parallel turns for AI diplomacy are allowed, I tested out what would happen if we declared war. If we did declare war, Roze would be very pleased and she wouldn't demand any credits or declare war on us. Knowing that, I closed the game and posted a poll in our private forum with the options:
a) declare war on the Hive (and pay nothing)
b) don't declare war on the Hive (and thus pay a bunch of valuable credits)
Despite the Hive being very hostile to us in the Council thread, we unanimously voted not to declare war and pay off Roze instead. I guess this shows just how aggressive CPU really is towards the Hive....
I hope though that the Hive won't expect us to keep paying the Angels, will again become more cooperative and friendly towards us, and thus give us a reason to keep refraining from allying with the Angels and Believers (who asked us the same thing regarding the Drones).

Thus the reason is that since we decided not to go to war, I needed to replay from the last midturn save (with thus a reload), and again move the probe skimship towards the Angels, but this time choose the other option in diplomacy. This also means the reload had nothing to do with our war against PEACE - we didn't refight any battle.

	06-03-2004 14:31									#3
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good

	07-03-2004 02:43									#4
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I do not feel CC's reason for reload is satisfactory. I have never been told that I could do one thing in the diplomatic window and then reload the game and do another. I don't have time now to PM Googlie so I choose to post this here. I'd like to hear everybody else' opinion.

	07-03-2004 02:51									#5
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Neither did we know that 'strategic simulators' were allowed, while at least 2 factions use them.

	07-03-2004 02:59									#6
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Neither did we know that 'strategic simulators' were allowed, while at least 2 factions use them.

We just learned about it recently.

	07-03-2004 03:15									#7
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quote: We just learned about it recently.

No you didn't, it was explained to you in the Hive-Cycon Embassy forum a long ago. Anyway it seems that parallel turns are allowed for base production and such (assuming that you don't explore). Parallel turns gives almost the same thing without the hours crosschecking things with a calculator.

Also which other faction used a similuator, I didn't think anyone else had the patience?

The reason why my EC and production strategy posts are so detailed was because I was repilicating the game on paper before putting it into the simulator and crosschecking.

	07-03-2004 05:57									#8
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Incredible

	07-03-2004 06:02									#9
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quote: Thus the reason is that since we decided not to go to war, I needed to replay from the last midturn save (with thus a reload), and again move the probe skimship towards the Angels,

But just happened to notice a CP on the way??

	07-03-2004 06:48									#10
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No we knew about the CP before we played the turn, IIRC. There is no way in hell I will allow any cheating in the CyCon team. This games purpose is fun, and cheating ruins that. I would far, far rather to play by the rules and lose than to cheat and win. Winning is not important enough to warrant breaking the rules. No CyCon has cheated at all, as it is not tolerated among the CyCons at all.

	07-03-2004 07:14									#11
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Function Drogue, I respect you and believe in your integrity. However I have seen others in your team conducting acts that may not be viewed as honorable by others. I do not wish that we have to go through all the past conducts to exam each one if it is right or wrong. When you believed PEACE had performed a reload inappropriately, you raised the point and the PEACE replayed. I feel that this is the right approach. When we found another action of the CC team that we do not approve of, we choose not to fuss about it. And I will not raise it now since the incident is already past. If the CCs feel that simulators should not be allowed you should have raised your objection when you found that out. It does not serve any point if you raise the objection now. We can not go back to turn 2115 and redo the turns.

Right now I have suspicious about the CC reload because it is in such a crucial time on PEACE's survival. Furthermore the aformentioned reload is caused by the probe ship exactly in question of buying the PEACE colony pod off. If Googlie or Tass can verify it was announced somehow in the CC's private forum that the PEACE colony pod is bought off before the reload then I would not have any objection about the reload. Otherwise I don't feel there is any way to disgard the possiblity that the CC team did not realize that they can buy off the CP the first time, and after they realized it they went back to change that.

	07-03-2004 07:17									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue No we knew about the CP before we played the turn, IIRC.

This contradict directly with what Function Maniac said in the PEACE urgent message thread.

	07-03-2004 08:28									#13
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu When you believed PEACE had performed a reload inappropriately, you raised the point and the PEACE replayed. I feel that this is the right approach. When we found another action of the CC team that we do not approve of, we choose not to fuss about it. And I will not raise it now since the incident is already past. If the CCs feel that simulators should not be allowed you should have raised your objection when you found that out. It does not serve any point if you raise the objection now. We can not go back to turn 2115 and redo the turns.

We don't disapprove of turn simulators. Those that did did bring it up with Googlie when we found out. We may have done things that other factions disapproved of, but we have never, and will never cheat. We have never asked to go back and redo the turns from then, since simulators are not against the rules. We were just saying why we used one, because it has been ruled legal.

quote: Originally posted by HongHu Right now I have suspicious about the CC reload because it is in such a crucial time on PEACE's survival. Furthermore the aformentioned reload is caused by the probe ship exactly in question of buying the PEACE colony pod off. If Googlie or Tass can verify it was announced somehow in the CC's private forum that the PEACE colony pod is bought off before the reload then I would not have any objection about the reload. Otherwise I don't feel there is any way to disgard the possiblity that the CC team did not realize that they can buy off the CP the first time, and after they realized it they went back to change that.

As I have said, we would rather quit than cheat, since it ruins games, making them no longer fun. Also, in our position, we don't really need to. As for midturns, at the point of the midturn, that move hadn't been taken yet. Here is part of GeoModder's post to show what I mean:

quote: The midturn save revealed the following units locations snipped I suggest the following battle orders: - Probe Foil performs a mind control on that colony pod

The Gods can verify that there were orders to subvert the CP (in the Military Affairs Function's thread if the Gods want to check). They can also verify that there is a poll started then as to what to do about Roze, with regards to her demand. Does that satisfy?

What about our story is implausible? It would be far more plausible, IMHO, to have to reload because the AI asked something different that needed to be discussed, than it is because we realised we could subvert the CP.

quote: Originally posted by HongHu This contradict directly with what Function Maniac said in the PEACE urgent message thread.

Then I am wrong. Sorry about that, I don't play the turn, I just know we talked before that there was a CP, I presumed we knew where. Either way, looking at PEACE base data we can get a very good idea, and I do not for a second believe Maniac would cheat by using a reload to see. As he has said on our forum, people cheating spoils the game, and if we are going to cheat, we'd rather quit the game, because it wouldn't be fun if people cheated. We do not wish to play in a game where people cheat. We have not used a turn simulator until now, since we didn't know they were allowed. Since they are allowed, we're fine with them. We have not cheated, and we will not cheat. If any CPU member knowingly cheats I will ask that they be removed from CPU. If they unknowingly cheat (such as being given information they shouldn't have) then I will inform Tass of the details. I can't stress enough how much I hate cheating, and how little it is tolerated in the CPU.

	07-03-2004 09:06									#14
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Thanks Function Drogue for your explanation. I commend your non-toleration of cheating. The definition of cheating can still be discussed but this is a matter we can further discuss later. As for the incident off hand, I wonder if Googlie can check your unfinished turn before the reload. If the PEACE colony pod was indeed already bought off by that time I do not have objection to this turn. I do still believe although we may be allowed to test AI response in a parallel turn, we should not be allowed to do one thing in the real turn and then reload and do another. I believe that the purpose of testing in parellel turns is exactly to avoid us having to do this. However, as I said before, if GoogliGod is able to verify that the Peace colony pod is already bought off before you contact Roze, then I would not object your turn. I'm sure you would understand anybody's doubt, because of the timing of the reload.

	07-03-2004 09:50									#15
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Thanks Function Drogue for your explanation. I commend your non-toleration of cheating. The definition of cheating can still be discussed but this is a matter we can further discuss later. As for the incident off hand, I wonder if Googlie can check your unfinished turn before the reload.

I don't think we have that turn posted. We don't usually post midturns, just 'presend' turns, that are just before hitting end turn. I'm not sure the midturn even exists. I can't see one in our forum. Maniac will have to post one if he has it.

quote: Originally posted by HongHu I do still believe although we may be allowed to test AI response in a parallel turn, we should not be allowed to do one thing in the real turn and then reload and do another. I believe that the purpose of testing in parellel turns is exactly to avoid us having to do this.

I agree. We tested it in a parallel turn, but when doing it for real, having decided on our actions, we found that the AI asked something different, and so we needed to repoll for what to do. Hence the reload. We didn't do one thing and then did another. We had the same actions, up until the AI meeting, and when the AI asked something different, Maniac polled for it, and went by the result of that.

	07-03-2004 22:18									#16
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Sorry for not replying earlier, but yesterday I was getting a 504 error every time I tried to access Apolyton.

The reason for parallel turns for AI diplomacy is the following: When you are negotiating with another human faction and they make you a proposal, you can say "Hold on a bit - I have to discuss it with my team and I'll tell you the answer tomorrow." You can't do that when an AI contacts you in-game, while being able to do so is rather important in a team game. Therefore contacting the AI in a parallel turn is allowed, to see what she says, and you can then start a poll in your forum to discuss what to answer.

quote: But just happened to notice a CP on the way??

No. that colony pod was already noticed before the reload. IIRC I still have the save I made after declaring war on the Hive per Angel request, so if I find the time I could send that to Tassadar, so he can check that the CP was mind controlled in both the midturn2 version and the presend version.

quote: No we knew about the CP before we played the turn, IIRC.

We had deduced before that there would be a PEACE transport with CP somewhere between Atlantis and that island. Only when we opened the CyCon turn, we noticed it had already landed on the island, and so the orders changed from sinking the transport with a cruiser and simply infiltrating the Angels without doing anything else to mind controlling the CP with the probe skimship before it continued to infiltrate the Angels.

quote: I do still believe although we may be allowed to test AI response in a parallel turn, we should not be allowed to do one thing in the real turn and then reload and do another. I believe that the purpose of testing in parellel turns is exactly to avoid us having to do this.

I agree. The problem is I had not been warned the Angels would request a vendetta declaration. I assume our MAF assumed that I would simply choose not to declare vendetta instead of starting a poll on it and thus didn't mention it to me.

quote: I agree. We tested it in a parallel turn, but when doing it for real, having decided on our actions, we found that the AI asked something different

Apparently she did ask a war declaration every time in the parallel turn. I just hadn't been warned.

quote: I don't think we have that turn posted. We don't usually post midturns, just 'presend' turns, that are just before hitting end turn. I'm not sure the midturn even exists. I can't see one in our forum. Maniac will have to post one if he has it.

I upload midturns during our 48 hours, but I continiously replace by updated versions as I execute the agreed upon orders bit by bit. IIRC I still have on my harddisk though:
- a midturn1 save where we have noticed the CP but not yet mind controlled it nor infiltrated the Angels
- a midturn2 save where we have mind controlled the CP, infiltrated the Angels and declared war on the Hive (this one has not been used further of course)
- a presend save where we have mind controlled the CP, infiltrated the Angels and not declared war on the Hive

	08-03-2004 00:59									#17
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Correction: I just checked and in the last midturn1 save the CP was already mind controlled. And that turn doesn't have a reload message, so I guess this is sufficient proof. When opening the midturn2 save I do get a reload message though, despite not remembering closing that save the wrong way. Would that reload message be caused by resuming play from the midturn1 save after the poll results were in?

	08-03-2004 01:23									#18
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Hi. This is the non-issue as I've cleared the CyCon save.
But if you guys really want to keep talking about it, go ahead

	08-03-2004 04:11									#19
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This is pure and blatant CHEATING. It is simply playing ahead to see it the AI makes an offer you like or not. The CyCon are OBLIGED to declare vendetta against the Angels in their next turn.

This is OUTRAGIOUS CHEATING in every possible sense.

Sorry to shout but this is TERRIBLE!

-Jam

	08-03-2004 08:42									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac I just checked and in the last midturn1 save the CP was already mind controlled. And that turn doesn't have a reload message, so I guess this is sufficient proof.

Yes it is sufficient proof to me. Thanks function Maniac and God Tass.

btw Jamski is terrible isn't he?

	08-03-2004 08:48									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue This games purpose is fun,

The game's purpose is learning and achievement.
To achieve with cheats proves nothing, taken, but I don't play for fun.

	08-03-2004 09:11									#22
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Ah. I see Enigma has returned to pray to his god for salvation

	08-03-2004 09:18									#23
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I disagree. Learning would come secondary to fun, because the purpose of SMAC, or any game, is enjoyment. Being good may aid your enjoyment, and so playing to become better may in the long run help your enjoyment, but being good without enjoyment ever is a futile exercise, since the only purpose of a game is enjoyment, and whatever leads to the most.

As you say though, that's beside the point, since cheating helps neither.

I didn't want to post a at Jamski's on the off chance that he was being semi-serious. However it did make me chuckle

	08-03-2004 17:46									#24
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Drogue, you know me too well

Semi-serious my arse... that post never even sent in the application to study at serious school for beginners.

-Jam

	08-03-2004 18:50									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski The CyCon are OBLIGED to declare vendetta against the Angels in their next turn.

No, we don't. My first action in the simulation was, after contact with Roze, NOT to go to war with Hive.

I more or less now the feelings of my teammates, Jamski.

	08-03-2004 20:52									#26
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Nonetheless your post has been studied by some serious beginners, Jamski.

	08-03-2004 22:39									#27
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Indeed.

Perhaps my trolling techniques are improving.

-Jam

	08-03-2004 23:49									#28
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Grrrrr...

	09-03-2004 00:04									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Kody No you didn't, it was explained to you in the Hive-Cycon Embassy forum a long ago. Anyway it seems that parallel turns are allowed for base production and such (assuming that you don't explore). Parallel turns gives almost the same thing without the hours crosschecking things with a calculator. Also which other faction used a similuator, I didn't think anyone else had the patience? The reason why my EC and production strategy posts are so detailed was because I was repilicating the game on paper before putting it into the simulator and crosschecking.

Yes, we know about that, but I don`t see any mention of AI testing and this issue was completely new to us until Googlie inadvertly said it. Even our Prime Function didn`t know about that.

	09-03-2004 01:05									#30
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GeoModder, meet mr bait, mr hook, mr line, and mr sinker