08-03-2004 10:30									#1
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http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...DG-Hive2159.SAV

Comrades

We go to War.

Above is the Turn as I see it now.

The Peace CP CyCon captured has moved inland. We Must Destroy it before it can establish base. We cannot wait a turn.

I have set up the production planning for our bases with a heavy emphasis on airpower. I have not made any rushes or moved any formers around yet.

Please review my production planning.

I will set forth my plan of battle and production rushing in the next few posts.

Mead

	08-03-2004 10:46									#2
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This will detail the battle plan for Eastern Theater of Operations.

As you can see in the save I have moved our ships west to better protect them and to provide a screen for Peace.

We have three problems in the East.

1. Deal with the Data Angle Invasion
2. Kill the CyCon Colony Pod before it makes a base.
3. Empty Conshelf57 for Peace

We deal with the invasion as follows.
1. Needlejet that is next to CyCon CP returns to New Moscow. It Kills Data Angle 4~1,1 infantry adjacent to New Moscow

2. We Launch (40% damaged) Apache out of Kommunzia City. It Kills Data Angel Impact Rover, and then (if healthy enough, which it should be still) Kills Data Angle transport, then it lands in New Moscow.

3. We Launch Skyhawk out of Rokossovkygrad. It Kills CyCon CP.
4. We Launch Apache out of Googligrad. It attacks and empties Conshelf57. It must land on the water. Hopefully it lives.



Mead

	08-03-2004 10:46									#3
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Agreed on the necessity of starting the war now.

We should contact Foreman Buster to advise him of our situation and what we are planning to do... see if he has anything specific that he would like to let us know before we make the attack (or coordinate on any change of plans).

	08-03-2004 11:07									#4
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This is the plan to take and hold Longreach.

Knowns:
Buster Has already scouted out some of the Fungus for us.

Longreach is garrison with: 1-2t-1 and 0-1-1 probe.

There is an Uni Infantry Unit SE of Longreach and a Uni Transport off its nearby coast.

Uni has one interceptor supported by Caboolture but either in the air or at a CyCon base.

There are no aircraft in any of the Uni's bases.

Gardens Point will have a needlejet read next turn.

My suggestion:

Launch Skyhawk out of Freedman's Park, recon area north of Longreach, kill any probes found, ensure turn ends on 86,30 to seal off Uni access to Longreach using either road or river (risk they may use their inteceptor on a suicide mission to clear way fro probes.

Lauch one chopper out of Freedman's Park it recons the southern (if Buster did not already for us, I'll check) fungus, kills the SE Uni infantry and empties the garrison of Longreach.

Launch second chopper out of Freedman's Park recon fungus northwest of Longreach, Killls any units within.

Drop both 1~3-1 Infantry into Longreach.

Land choppers in Longreach.

Land Choppers from Anvil of Man in Longreach.

Move up the other units that cannot make it to Longreach to Freedman's Park for the second wave.

I will post this in the Drone Embassy for Buster's review and comment.


Mead

	08-03-2004 12:59									#5
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btw... there are CLEAR signs in both the forum and in chat channels that the CyCon are engaging in a minor disinformation campaign attempting to convince us of their wish for peace while moving that Colony Pod into position.

My firm belief is that if we do not kill that colony pod this turn, they are planning to use it, almost immediately, for an attack. The sheer amount of CyCon posting about how much they want peace and want to avoid a war is a pretty clear signal in my book.

Call me paranoid, but I think I know a poorly orchestrated disinformation campaign when I see one. These guys are hoping to get the jump on us.

So yes, kill the colony pod.

	08-03-2004 21:44									#6
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Buster's reply to Mead at the Embassy:

quote: If you are talking about starting the actual attack now - yes I believe the plan will work. However - I believe cycon may opt to destroy a large part of the uni territory in order to buy time. (Scorched earth tactics). Waiting till next turn means we can empty 8 cities (townsville, cape york, daintree, kelvin grove, gold coast, carseldine, sunshine coast and longreach) effectively preventing them from destroying these. We will be taking some of these (probably at least three or four can be taken safely) and so be in reach of the remaining. Going now can probably probably be done safely - though some of the choppers you will leave hanging around may be taken out by ground units. That is a lot we can easily manage though and not itself a problem. Shortly - yes it is probably safe but will likely give you a few extra casualties. My main concern is not so much the safety of the attack but the fact they may opt to destroy the bases they believe to be exposed and then go to Gas warfare - which could make it hard to hold Longreach (one hot by a gasplane will wipe the base). On waiting and hitting the next row of bases simultaneously we are effectively robbing them of the chance to selfdestroy (as they cannot destroy empty bases - it requires a millitary unit inside). Danger is of course they spot our units and selfdestroy the closest bases before we even get the chance to take one of them (in which case we will need to drop in a cp to get in range). Now if they spot our (drones) advance party - I will claim they are heading towards pirates to assist them. They may well believe that. However if they spot your units they cannot be explained away. I believe however chances of being spotted are very small. I don't see any reason the plane should be coming that way from Gardens Point and that is the only chance of exposure I can imagine. I will leave the decision to you. You could go now as outlined. The danger is not much that it will it will fail (I am quite sure you would be able to take and hold the base) I am more concerned about their destroying own bases. Of course that in effect means they have lost the game (which in fact they had already when they got into their fight with Pirates even if they may not realize it) but it could delay the end quite a bit as we will need to build our way to Cycon territory rather than being able to use Uni bases to get there and once Cycon is without trading partners there is no reason for them not to gas-equip all their units - making defending newly built bases near their homeground complicated. It all comes down to the chance of being spotted. If we are spotted it would better we had at least taken one base. If we are not we are better off waiting.

	08-03-2004 21:46									#7
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I'm still inclined to agree with buster's plan. If we are spotted, I don't think the will self destroy their bases. They'll likely change production to military and try to fight us. I believe the CCs will only self destroy the bases if they realize both of us are going for them. However the chance of them spotting both of us should be slim.

I believe this couse of action is also Comrade Rubin's command.

	08-03-2004 22:29									#8
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Please note this post.

There may be some concerns. Also, please explain to me where we are discussing orders for M.Y. 2159 and why it seems that some orders have already been dispatched!?!

	08-03-2004 23:30									#9
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Yes that post is exactly what I meant by your command. I think Mead has not played the turn yet. Not sure what you meant by orders been dispatched?

	08-03-2004 23:34									#10
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I suggest we use ONE thread for discussions on each aspect (CMC, CPC, etc), for each turn, other than discuss them in multiple threads. The final orders then can be put on the topped threads (CMC, CPC, etc.)?

	09-03-2004 00:10									#11
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Comrade HongHu, considering the intertwined complexity of our planning in different areas I suggest we do not split the immediate required planning into multiple fora.

quote: Originally posted by Mead [...] As you can see in the save I have moved our ships west to better protect them and to provide a screen for Peace. [...]

The above quote suggests that some orders have already been dispatched regarding M.Y. 2159. I hope this is not the case, though. That is to say, I hope I've misunderstood Comrade Mead's statement.

	09-03-2004 02:25									#12
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Oh, sorry I didn't notice that. Has a save been posted by comrade Mead?

And I agree no multiple threads should be opened. That's my original intention too. I was trying to suggest we shouldn't have multiple threads for the immediate turn planning and discussion for this would cause confusion.

	09-03-2004 02:31									#13
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Question for conshelf57 for I don't have access to the game right now. Is it your concern that Roze will produce another garrison just before PEACE take the base? We already have a probe ready but it will take at least two turns for it to be transported to conshelf57. We are also making a probe foil. A foil of ours is currently surrounded by some pods. If it is lucky we may actually get the probe foil completed but this is not very likely. In other words there will be some problem if we wait for a probe before we take conshlf57. Could we simply attack and if Roze changes production we attack the next turn again. I don't think Roze will be able to produce another garrison in the following turn? This way it may actually be quicker. I do not believe the only PEACE base can survive very long. Also I suggest we don't use up all of our ecs. We need to give some to the PEACE if they have a need to hurry a scout.

	09-03-2004 02:41									#14
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Can someone post a screenshot of the main front and the east front please?

I don't have SMAC installed at the moment.

-Jam

	09-03-2004 06:05									#15
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Oh, sorry I didn't notice that. Has a save been posted by comrade Mead? And I agree no multiple threads should be opened. That's my original intention too. I was trying to suggest we shouldn't have multiple threads for the immediate turn planning and discussion for this would cause confusion.

Yes, a save has been posted.

I did move the ships west, because we were going to do that anyway.

I also moved our southeastern needlejet closer to New Moscow because it was going to land there anyway. I stopped it once I found the CP.

I will post the new save after I review all the comments and incorprate them.


Mead

	09-03-2004 07:14									#16
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu I'm still inclined to agree with buster's plan. If we are spotted, I don't think the will self destroy their bases. They'll likely change production to military and try to fight us. I believe the CCs will only self destroy the bases if they realize both of us are going for them. However the chance of them spotting both of us should be slim. I believe this couse of action is also Comrade Rubin's command.

If they destroy Uni's bases then they deprive themselves of MMI and the Drones of a lot of bases.

Us taking Longreach should not push them over the edge.


Mead

	09-03-2004 07:16									#17
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All my future discussions on War plans for 2159 will be done in Turn 2159 thread.

I will play the turn in less than 2 hours. Please view and comment in 2159.

Mead

	09-03-2004 09:12									#18
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I agree with you Comrade Mead that us taking Longreach should not make them self destroy their bases. But I still am not sure if we shouldn't wait till next turn. Why do we want to face the risk alone? And we would not be able to continue the momentum next turn. I thought the plan is hit them hard and fast.

Kill the CP and declare war is one thing that I do agree. But I think we do not have an urgent need to strike uni? If your mind is already set then I would not say more. But please do consider more carefully.

	09-03-2004 09:18									#19
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Either way, the Drones will act. If we start this, hopefully the Drones will be able to keep up the momentum while we get new forces in. It'll be a "rolling attack" with us starting it, then the Drones covering us, and vice versa.

If we strike them now, then hopefully we can divert the attention away from the Drones when they can launch an attack. Hopefully we can confuse them by swamping them with our combined forces.

	09-03-2004 09:24									#20
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Well since Drones and Hive turns are close together back to back, the plan was for we to go in together, and empty about at least eight or nine bases, while occupying a couple bases. The next turn we go together again and we will secure the entire land.

If we go solo now, the battle will be much less perfect. We will be taking one base and may or may not have enough force in range for emptying more bases the next turn. Plus we will be giving our war intention out to the CPU and permit the Uni and CC time to react before the Drones.

Arnelos will not be able to deliver the speech right when we strike also. For he has to wait until the Drone's turn so that he does not sell Drone's plan out to our enemies.

	09-03-2004 09:26									#21
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Awww....Comrade HongHu!

I was already thirsting for CPU blood and you have to go and be the sense of reason......

Well, if we destroy that CP, won't the CPU interpret that as an act of war and tell them our intentions anyway?

	09-03-2004 09:31									#22
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No. They will think that our focus is on the east coast instead of the univ front, which is in the opposite direction. But as I said, I think there are also reasons to go in this turn. So if it is decided this way I would not oppose. Just need to be careful with the speech. We would not be able to use it until later. We can still explain away with the killing of the CP, say it's for our security and stuff. But if we open the uni war, I'm sure the CC's won't be quietly waiting for our declaration of the war until the Drones turn.

	09-03-2004 09:33									#23
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Well since Drones and Hive turns are close together back to back, the plan was for we to go in together, and empty about at least eight or nine bases, while occupying a couple bases. The next turn we go together again and we will secure the entire land. If we go solo now, the battle will be much less perfect. We will be taking one base and may or may not have enough force in range for emptying more bases the next turn. Plus we will be giving our war intention out to the CPU and permit the Uni and CC time to react before the Drones. Arnelos will not be able to deliver the speech right when we strike also. For he has to wait until the Drone's turn so that he does not sell Drone's plan out to our enemies.

When the speech is delivered should have no impact on the military planning. You do whatever is best for the Hive and the Drones in the military planning. The speech will simply have to respond to it.

So if we go early, then we go early. The speech will simply have to wait until its the Drones turn and the speech will not screw up any chance of the University bases not being disbanded as the Foreman fears.

	09-03-2004 09:35									#24
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Since everyone seems to be in this thread right now and I need an answer soon I post again here.

Hong Hu or anyone

I am ready to pull the trigger.

I have launched two needlejets.

One is just outside Sunshine coast with one movement point left ready to Kill the Sunshine Trance Speeder and Probe.

The is other, launchd out of Rokossvygrad, is just northwest of the CyCon CP on that island ready to Kill it.

My needlejet that was next to the CP returned to New Moscow and Killed the Data Angle Infantry.

My chopper (which was 40% damaged) Killed the Data Angel Impact Rover and Foil. It is now Hardened Moral. I landed it in New Moscow.

I need help.

How do I declare Vendetta (when they won't pick up the phone)? On CyCon.

I can sneak attack, and will if I have to, but I don't want to if I can declar Vendetta before.


Mead

	09-03-2004 09:38									#25
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu No. They will think that our focus is on the east coast instead of the univ front, which is in the opposite direction. But as I said, I think there are also reasons to go in this turn. So if it is decided this way I would not oppose. Just need to be careful with the speech. We would not be able to use it until later. We can still explain away with the killing of the CP, say it's for our security and stuff. But if we open the uni war, I'm sure the CC's won't be quietly waiting for our declaration of the war until the Drones turn.

From what I see of CyCon's movement of that colony pod and their seeming attempt to encourage us not to attack this turn, I'm betting that we'll be significantly better off killing that colony pod this turn.

The problem is if this action prevents Foreman Buster from being able to capture the optimal number of University bases before they are disbanded.

I, for one, believe it may be possible for us to immediately go to war, kill that colony pod and perform all military actions on OUR side of the map ("Eastern front" I think you all have started to call it). We will simply have to hope and pray that CyCon does not disband the Uni bases. Though, although I do not recall who brought it up, there is advantage in them disbanding the Uni bases in that it will delay their acquisition of MMI.

Another thing... is there any danger of CyCon achieving a diplomatic victory if they get MMI and make pacts with both the Data Angels and Sister Miriam? I'm just throwing that out in the open because I haven't looked at the save and don't really know. My apologies if that's just a fool's worry.

	09-03-2004 09:38									#26
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I think everybody is in agreement for killing the CP Arnelos. The issue at hand is whether we should go and strike on the Uni front. It is not that we will deprive buster of anything, he will not be affected by us much. The issue is what is the best action plan for ourselves.

Although I do believe we have agreed that we will take Longreach and Drones will take sunshine coast. In other words comrade Mead, I don't know if it is good if we take sunshine coast instead without getting the Drones' agreement. Why are you doing this?

Last edited by Snowflake on 09-03-2004 at 09:45

	09-03-2004 09:40									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Mead How do I declare Vendetta (when they won't pick up the phone)? On CyCon. I can sneak attack, and will if I have to, but I don't want to if I can declar Vendetta before.

It's been too long since I played SMAC or SMAX in an MP game... I honestly couldn't tell you, sorry.

	09-03-2004 09:41									#28
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Exactly.

Exactly, to specifically what?

	09-03-2004 09:43									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos It's been too long since I played SMAC or SMAX in an MP game... I honestly couldn't tell you, sorry.

Hong Hu

Do you know?

	09-03-2004 09:45									#30
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I don't know, Comrade Mead. I think you simply "break treaty" and it goes straight to Vendetta. That's the only way I can see us going straight to Vendetta.

As for the diplomatic victory, I highly doubt that since the Drones and Ourselves are sitting on a very large populace.