09-03-2004 04:57									#1
	Long-Term Goals Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

We're at something of an impasse. We've built a decent force of warriors for upgrade to MIs should we be attacked, and we have catapults and horsies being built now. We've attained a high level of growth, giving us high levels of production; however, where do we put that production? More units, or improvements?

In short: What do we want? There's been some talk of going to war with LL, but we need to come up with a concrete plan.

	09-03-2004 05:55									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Interesting question. Obviously I have not been as active lately to give my input, but it was my understanding we were building our core up to be able to sustain a defensive effort against the inevitable attack by one of the other civs on our continent. LL is the front runner based on their proximity to our own core. They have likely hit their limit of cities on their own peninsula while the rest of us still have ample room to grow.

Beyond that, we are building to be able to take down one of the other civs if they become powerful enough to threaten us. Sunshine comes to mind there.

Right now we are just about the premier civ on the continent. We have excellent growth potential and the beginnings of an excellent infrastructure as well as the current best army on the continent. However I don't think we want to push our power in the face of the others too much. Right now LL is seen as the threat because of their RCP core and their legion upgrade potential. We are likely their target because of our '2nd tier' status, but we don't want to be seen by the others as the primary threat.

My recommendation...we continue to build our military with some more emphasis on mounted units if possible for a large and mobile defense...and to ease UnO's mind . We will still need the slower movers and more bombardment capability as well. Buffet and Chow can continue to be the best military and breadbasket cities we have for now. Once we have reached our own optimal city number (i.e down to the west chokepoint, etc.) then Chow can start producing workers by the score for joining into outlying cities etc. For the cities surrounding the core we can start using them to build up our infrastructure such as the necessary marketplaces when we can safely spare them from military production. We keep our military strong to prevent or use in the case of invasion, but then we build our infrastructure to the point where the other teams can't match us...and it will be too late for them to stop us when they realize we are the true power on the continent.

Sorry if that rambled a bit.

	09-03-2004 07:50									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Seriously, in a PBEM, were it ME?

I would not begin a war until Cavalry....PROVIDED the builders are able to keep us competitive that long without a GA.

The second option would be a limited war to claim these close LL cities only. Would the other teams allow us to keep it short/limited though?

Another, what is the likelyhood of Gunpowder where we are currently? Can someone to an odds study?

Anyway, by waiting till Calv, we are able to build our riders still and upgrade them. - Hot Enamel determined that UU's don't expire unless your GA has.

If we move on LL, Sunshine will be against us, If we move on Sunshine, LL will be against us. MAST will join whoever they think is winning.

Primarily we need to gain a full fledged ally. However, Sunshine wants non of that, MAST is not going to be in a decent position any time soon.

I would say making LL/Tabemono vs Sunshine/MAST would be the absolute best bet given Sunshines idiotic stance. Much as I'ld like a Scientific partner.

	09-03-2004 10:26									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Seriously, in a PBEM, were it ME? I would not begin a war until Cavalry....PROVIDED the builders are able to keep us competitive that long without a GA. The second option would be a limited war to claim these close LL cities only. Would the other teams allow us to keep it short/limited though? Another, what is the likelyhood of Gunpowder where we are currently? Can someone to an odds study? Anyway, by waiting till Calv, we are able to build our riders still and upgrade them. - Hot Enamel determined that UU's don't expire unless your GA has. If we move on LL, Sunshine will be against us, If we move on Sunshine, LL will be against us. MAST will join whoever they think is winning. Primarily we need to gain a full fledged ally. However, Sunshine wants non of that, MAST is not going to be in a decent position any time soon. I would say making LL/Tabemono vs Sunshine/MAST would be the absolute best bet given Sunshines idiotic stance. Much as I'ld like a Scientific partner.

Regarding saltpeter, there is a good chance we will get one source at least. It appears mainly in desert of which we will have only one small strip (and it isn't even in our radius right now), but it also appears in hills and mountains of which we have an ample amount ringing our cities.

Regarding waiting for cavalry for an attack, that is definitely best if we can swing it. And I do think we can remain competitive without a GA. But even so, we have the opportunity to build our way into a GA. We have already secured the industrious requirement of the wonder GA with the Pyramids. All we need do is build a militaristic wonder. Those include in alphabetical order: Leo's (preferable), The Great Wall (third preference), The Manhattan Project (way too far our there), Sun Tzu's (second preference), and Universal Suffrage (also way too far out there).

I agree that we need an ally...one that would go to war with us if we are attacked. MAST comes to mind simply because they need help to even compete and might relish a full-blown alliance. I too would prefer LL at the moment, but I don't think that will happen.

	09-03-2004 19:10									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The builders have converted me to not wanting Sun Tzu's, I would say go for Leos and if we can't swing it, grab one of the happiness wonders, Sun Tzu's as a 3rd option.

Great wall will likely not be competed heavily for if we only need to trigger GA.

	09-03-2004 21:13									#6
	Suffering from ads?

I think Leo's should be our top Wonder right now. It will give us the flexibility we need in our building/military strategy.

I think in the near future we need to work on aggressively counter-settling against LL on our SE front. I'd even suggest some "culture bombing" if we can swing it. We need to send them the message that they can't just stroll into "our" territory and get away with it.

	09-03-2004 21:14									#7
	Tired of ads?

Actually, thinking about it... if we wanted to be totall a***oles, we could send a settler to build a city in the gap between their "outpost" cities and their chokepoint. They've already started a road for us

	09-03-2004 22:04									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If we write it off and don't attempt to defend, I'm for it.

Wouldn't that technically break the Sunshine deal though?

	09-03-2004 23:21									#9
	Support Apolyton

quote: Wouldn't that technically break the Sunshine deal though?

Well, it wouldn't be a declaration of war, and is techincally empty territory. I would consider it no more or less hostile than what they've done to us.

	10-03-2004 02:08									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I meant sunshine's border deal: "don't settle south of this line"

	10-03-2004 02:23									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hmm... I don't think it does... but I'll check

	18-03-2004 14:50									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I did a bit of mucking around while working on the orders tonight. We have 20 warriors, about 15 of which are currently upgradeable. We have 18 spearmen, of which around 15 can be easily upgraded. We have 4 swordsmen, 2 of which are elite and shouldn't be upgraded. And we have currently 9 horsemen with 1 finishing next turn and 2 more soon after.

If we plan on starting to upgrade soon it will take us about 1240 gold to upgrade our warriors and spearmen to medieval infantry and pikemen (900 for the warriors, 300 for the spears, and 40 for the swords). Plus we have an ever growing number of horsemen that, when we are ready to upgrade, will cost 80 gold per upgrade.

Therefore, I think that after we have entered Republic it would behoove us to lie low in the tech race for a little while to build up some cash. We need at least 600 more gold just for our non-horseman upgrades.

Having Leonardo's Workshop before the upgrades would certainly be great, though I imagine we'd be in a race to get it. We'll have to figure out a way to get invention still, but perhaps we can do that via trading. It's very possible that one of the civs from the other continent (possibly CoD) would give us a substantial discount on invention if we gift them feudalism now. Leo's is definitely a priority build if we can swing it, though it will cause us to enter our golden age if we are the ones to build it.

	18-03-2004 15:01									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Oh, and if you're all wondering...yes I am starting to get back into this game again. For a while I wasn't reading any of the turn orders or reports or even checking the saves, but I think I'm going to be doing that again.

Kloreep if you want any help (or backup if you're not around) with MOI orders I'd be happy to help.

	22-03-2004 01:50									#14
	Got spare money?

Help would definitely be appreciated.

	25-03-2004 22:43									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

We really need to sit down and reassess this again. What are we doing? For a while I thought we were going to do a...ahem...peaceful military build-up to an overwhelming combined arms force of riders, pikes, and catapults. But then that 'attack LL in 20 turns' thread showed up so I'm wondering where we're headed.

The original intention was to finish feudalism and enter anarchy for republic and build markets to get our core going. But if our intention is to continue building to attack them very soon then it is not feasible to start our anarchy now. Not only would we suffer serious war weariness for being the aggressor in a republic, but we will need a large cash build-up to upgrade our units.

So what are we doing? We need to decide very soon since we receive feudalism next turn and that was the original intended date of anarchy.

	26-03-2004 02:45									#16
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well, I'm bored, so I asked what others thought of the attack in 20 turns basically.

IT IS possible provided that both MAST and SS cooperate. This would be a war to weaken most likely, not to kill, though. I would make every attempt to keep it short as a result. It's only aimed at grabbing THIS side of the choke. Yes, landing in their core WILL get us this side of the choke... Then, perhaps I play my name up too much at times...

Sharpe did a sim and the switch to Rep would be unproductive until we get a few more markets up, that's why it's gonna wait a little. As for WW. I mock WW.

	26-03-2004 02:58									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't have a problem with building up for an attack, I just want to make sure of what we're doing. If we try to go several different ways at once then none of them will work out as well as we hope. We need to decide now whether we're going to build up militarily for a strike now or build up economically for a strike later. If we do both at once we're doomed to fail.