15-03-2004 03:33									#121
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia i think in most cases, yea. or if not actual maximization, allowing the chance for each person to maximize.

Allowing people chances is a political problem. Actual maximization of utility is an economic problem.

	15-03-2004 03:35									#122
	Full PM-box? Change here!

ok lets get less hypothetical. should government tax externality producers, or should they do something to get rid of this kink in D and S? yes
should government supply goods with free rider problems? in many cases yes.
should government allocate resources to each person depending on what job they take? no.

	15-03-2004 03:41									#123
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia should government allocate resources to each person depending on what job they take? no.

Do you believe that given an amount of output, an equal distribution of that output will provide more benefit to society than an unequal distribution?

	15-03-2004 03:44									#124
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Do you believe that given an amount of output, an equal distribution of that output will provide more benefit to society than an unequal distribution?

to a certain extent, id say it will, especially in developing countries. the more equal the wealth distribution is in some of those countries, the better off they will be (a lot better off than GDP may suggest.) in developed countries on the other hand, i'd say equal distribution, but to a lesser extent.'

but i believe this distribution which you talk about is through FIAT and not by price. one could also say that equal distribution is one in which people of equal monetary/ non tangible means, are able to get the same amount of things if they go to the same place, which is a better form of maximizing utility . . . (continuted below)

	15-03-2004 03:46									#125
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

since resources will be allocated to goods which are more desired, goods at all different price ranges. an economy where everyone makes the same will see a higher concentration of assets into the purchase of the same amount of goods and services, and the same types of goods and services.

	15-03-2004 03:55									#126
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia to a certain extent, id say it will, especially in developing countries. the more equal the wealth distribution is in some of those countries, the better off they will be (a lot better off than GDP may suggest.) in developed countries on the other hand, i'd say equal distribution, but to a lesser extent.'

The extent of the utility difference is determined by the extent of the difference in equality, obviously.

If you assume that there is diminishing utility for income, then it follows that nations like the US are not maximizing utility. In fact the difference in the actual utility and the potential utility in the US is particularly significant.

	15-03-2004 04:00									#127
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: If you assume that there is diminishing utility for income, then it follows that nations like the US are not maximizing utility. In fact the difference in the actual utility and the potential utility in the US is particularly significant.

most likely. but then we get to the question of 'does the government know how to maximize utility' or should we set up a system which allows for maximization of utility, and where those who dont fall out. or even 'does maximization need to occur on the macro or micro scale'

	15-03-2004 04:08									#128
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia most likely. but then we get to the question of 'does the government know how to maximize utility'

You should ask yourself this question before studying economics. If the answer is no, then you should make your argument against economics as a legitamite social science. That would make you an anti-economist, not an economist.

If the govt can't maximize utility then we shouldn't even be concerned with economics, because that concern will be pointless or counterproductive.

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia or should we set up a system which allows for maximization of utility, and where those who dont fall out. or even 'does maximization need to occur on the macro or micro scale'

Again, if you aren't concerned with utility maximization, then you aren't really an economist.

	15-03-2004 04:19									#129
	Got spare money?

quote: If the answer is no, then you should make your argument against economics as a legitamite social science.

i disagree. efficiency can only be assured through the price mechanism. how can the government assure this other than thru open market policies. economics isnt a science, and you cannot quantify everything. how do i know what my marginal utility is? i dont know. do you? because for a government to allocate everything to maximize utility, they would have to know that.

	15-03-2004 05:25									#130
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by DanS Hmmm... Reading the last couple of pages... Regarding deficits, they do matter. How much of a concern they are is another story. To be sure, large persistent deficits are no good. I would hold Bush to a plan of eliminating the deficit by the time he is out of office, rather than half measures, like he is proposing.

DanS, Listen to yourself. You seem to acknowledge that deficits have an economic effect, and then call for a balanced budget without reference to other economic factors or conditions.

That kind of thinking is the problem, IMHO.

	15-03-2004 05:31									#131
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I really don't think so. HDTVs just replace regular TVs. So it really doesn't act as a stimulus. Computers and internet were different, because they were completely new.

If you have seen an HDTV, I think you will reconsider this statement. People are going to replace perfectly good TVs with much more expensive HDTVs once they have seen the difference.

Also, there seems to be a continuing upgrade to broadband internet that really makes a lot of products and services on the internet viable - like iTunes, movie downloads and the like.

	15-03-2004 05:34									#132
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Ned If you have seen an HDTV, I think you will reconsider this statement. People are going to replace perfectly good TVs with much more expensive HDTVs once they have seen the difference. Also, there seems to be a continuing upgrade to broadband internet that really makes a lot of products and services on the internet viable - like iTunes, movie downloads and the like.

The real advances in consumer sales will be seen when broadband internet and HDTV are married on your entertainment center.

	15-03-2004 05:50									#133
	Tired of ads?

Plato, we are getting close. Right now DirecTV is marketing HDTV DTRs (Tivo, I believe) that record HDTV programs on a hard drive. Simply add a general purpose processor, and one has a computer. Add a DVD player and a game controller, you have video games. They also market satellite broadband. Add this in, and you have an integrated system that would permit online play, etc.

	15-03-2004 05:54									#134
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia i disagree. efficiency can only be assured through the price mechanism. how can the government assure this other than thru open market policies.

You asked me if the govt should know how to maximize utility. Why did you ask me that if your answer is yes.

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia economics isnt a science, and you cannot quantify everything. how do i know what my marginal utility is? i dont know. do you? because for a government to allocate everything to maximize utility, they would have to know that.

No they don't. If their problem is an economic problem they only need to maximize total utility. They need not be concerned with individual marginal utility or individual utility for that matter.

	15-03-2004 05:59									#135
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ned Plato, we are getting close. Right now DirecTV is marketing HDTV DTRs (Tivo, I believe) that record HDTV programs on a hard drive. Simply add a general purpose processor, and one has a computer. Add a DVD player and a game controller, you have video games. They also market satellite broadband. Add this in, and you have an integrated system that would permit online play, etc.

Yes, I've seen HDTV. It's a modest improvement, not a new product. It's been around for awhile, and the price has already dropped quite a bit. Anyway, I think the're made in China, and they won't create jobs here.

	15-03-2004 06:04									#136
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I find it interesting that economists are discussing marginal utility of the last dollar earned, as if that was something they even should desire to control, when what everyone wants is to be able to drive the economy to full employment and rapid real growth without intermittent recessions and stock market collapses.

	15-03-2004 06:12									#137
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Ned everyone wants is to be able to drive the economy to full employment and rapid real growth without intermittent recessions and stock market collapses.

Who said we economists aren't concerned with these things? Economic growth and increased utility are one and the same.

	15-03-2004 06:13									#138
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: You asked me if the govt should know how to maximize utility. Why did you ask me that if your answer is yes.

hmmm, i dont think I said that it should be yes.

quote: No they don't. If their problem is an economic problem they only need to maximize total utility. They need not be concerned with individual marginal utility or individual utility for that matter.

no, you are looking at marginal utility, because total utility will always grow, as long as inputs keep up at a constant rate of growth. you are looking at how to divide up resources so that marginal utility will be maximized.

	15-03-2004 06:31									#139
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia hmmm, i dont think I said that it should be yes.

Didn't you say that the govt can maximize utility by doing nothing, or something along those lines?

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia no, you are looking at marginal utility, because total utility will always grow, as long as inputs keep up at a constant rate of growth. you are looking at how to divide up resources so that marginal utility will be maximized.

Look, let's assume that there is no productivity growth and there is full employment. How would you then maximize utility?

	15-03-2004 06:38									#140
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Didn't you say that the govt can maximize utility by doing nothing, or something along those lines?

nah, i said 'how can the government know how to maximize utility for everyone?'

quote: Look, let's assume that there is no productivity growth and there is full employment. How would you then maximize utility?

heh, i think you are talking about maximizing the utility for everyone: ie. taking resources and dividing them up equaly between everyone so that every single resources is being used up correct? well i dont know if thats possible, because if i use some cash to buy a car, well when im not driving it, its not being used to its maximum. property rights conflict with the maximization of utility on a national scale.

	15-03-2004 07:19									#141
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia taxing the rich more doesnt necessairly mean they will spend less. look at it this way - rich have lots of money, so each dollar has less value for him (basic economic principles) therefore, taking an extra 30,000 from them wont really mean much.

We ALREADY tax the rich more - even a flat tax would do what you suggest. If everyone pays 10% of their income, then the rich still pay more. They even pay more, proportionally.

	15-03-2004 07:29									#142
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia nah, i said 'how can the government know how to maximize utility for everyone?'

No. You add up all of the utility recieved by each individual and that is total utility. The goal economics is to maximize utility.

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia property rights conflict with the maximization of utility on a national scale.

Exactly. Property rights are only an economic issue if they are a determinant of utility in the study of economics. Property rights for the sake of the rights themselves is a political issue.

	15-03-2004 07:31									#143
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: No. You add up all of the utility recieved by each individual and that is total utility. The goal economics is to maximize utility.

And you think the government is capable of doing this? Can you say "IRS"? Look at the immigration service, and how they approved the student visas for the 9-11 terrorists. There are a billion examples of how the government is completely and utterly incompetent.

	15-03-2004 07:39									#144
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: No. You add up all of the utility recieved by each individual and that is total utility. The goal economics is to maximize utility. And you think the government is capable of doing this? Can you say "IRS"? Look at the immigration service, and how they approved the student visas for the 9-11 terrorists. There are a billion examples of how the government is completely and utterly incompetent.

I can barely handle LoA. You are the absolute worst econ student.

	15-03-2004 07:53									#145
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think I know what might be confusing you guys. It's not necessary for the govt to be able to calculate utility. Govts actions either increase or decrease utility. Economists theorize about how policies will do that.

	15-03-2004 09:40									#146
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

so what units is utility calculated in?

	15-03-2004 10:52									#147
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia so what units is utility calculated in?

Utils are hypothetical units. The only way to measure an actual unit of utility would be to set experimental conditions, and even then you couldn't measure the utility of things that are needed for survival.

edit: The utility gained from one persons drinking water is greater than that of the utility gained from Bill Gates' mansion. The way that we know this is because if Bill Gates were dying of thirst in the desert he would trade his mansion for water in a heartbeat.

	15-03-2004 11:15									#148
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: DanS, Listen to yourself. You seem to acknowledge that deficits have an economic effect, and then call for a balanced budget without reference to other economic factors or conditions. That kind of thinking is the problem, IMHO.

I didn't reference those conditions, but they impact my thinking on the subject. Once the labor market starts picking up (any month now ), the recession in all of its forms will have ended and the reason for the deficits will have vanished.

If Bush wins reelection, he has 5.5 years of unencumbered policy-making in front of him. This seems to me to be more than enough time to mend the budget back to something close to balance by budget cuts.

	15-03-2004 11:34									#149
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: edit: The utility gained from one persons drinking water is greater than that of the utility gained from Bill Gates' mansion. The way that we know this is because if Bill Gates were dying of thirst in the desert he would trade his mansion for water in a heartbeat.

but utility changes depending on circumstances. if you had enough water and were homeless, then you'd want to get a house, which is worth more to you. so how does this get factored in?

	15-03-2004 19:18									#150
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Once the labor market starts picking up (any month now ), the recession in all of its forms will have ended and the reason for the deficits will have vanished.

The reason for deficits will have vanished, but only because taxation will become a relatively cheaper way for the US to raise money.

As for Bush "mending the deficit by budget cuts", well I just don't see how that could possibly work if he maintains his tax cut. It would require (at the very least) massive cuts in military spending, which does not seem likely.


Note: I have some changes to my last post, if anyone is still interested.