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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by Grumbold
Would you rather attack once a round or four times? Its kinda important  |
You can attack a number of times each turn, up to the limit of the unit type, in PG 3 (and 3D). Artillery can fire 3 times, for example.
quote:
Originally posted by Grumbold
I regualrly had only one artillery commander and 3 artillery units, so two had to be commanded by leaders from the wrong force. Its just stupid. |
Well, you can adjust your first and second choice of leaders. At least in PG 3. So I always pick artillery to be first choice and bombers second. I also never have more than 2 artillery units until the 2 commanders both achieve rank 10. When that happens it's almost near the end of the campaign anyway, so I would have at least one or two extra artillery commanders if I need them.
quote:
Originally posted by Grumbold
You got equipment after it was historically available if you could afford the massive prestige cost of them. |
There's no such thing as prestige cost in these two games. You have a chance of getting prototype and new equipment, and a chance of getting new leaders. Doing well means you get more promotions to use on your leaders.
quote:
Originally posted by Grumbold
If you've won campaings that were historically lost, why wouldn't you have more than the historical number of Tiger tanks? Yours didn't get destroyed and your factories didn't get as badly bombed  |
Even if you play as Zhukov or Rommel, say, it seems that you are in fact controlling only a small number of units, not massive numbers of armies and corps
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CerberusIV
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Very interesting. I didn't realise the early PG games were still popular. I recently dusted off my PG2 and played the blitizkrieg campaign (for the nth time - it is a bit too easy once you know it well).
I prefer to be vaguely historical with my unit choices so I run 2 panzer divisions, each with 2 tanks, 2 stosstruppen, a towed artillery, a SP artillery, a SP air defence, a SP anti-tank and a recon unit (total 2 x 9). Also a paratroop division with 3 fallschirm, a towed artillery, a SP air defence and a recon (6). Add another tank, a pionere infantry and another SP anti-tank and that is my ground army. In the air I manage with 3 fighters, a couple of stukas and a fighter-bomber type. Total 33 units and I expect to have all but one fighter and the fighter bomber by the start of Dunkirk.
On my last play through I picked up 10 brilliant and 3 ordinary victories so this force structure does work. The fallschirm are crucial to get brilliant victories in some scenarios (Dunkirk, Novgorod) and are generally useful for seizing chokepoints and guarding victory objectives.
Tip: the SP air defence really only pay if you are brave enough to let the AI see a juicy target, like an artillery unit, with your AD unit one hex further back and out of their spotting range. If the weather holds you get 2 shots at an enemy fighter before your own fighters finish it off. This can be dangerous if the enemy has bombers available and should not be tried against US forces in the last 2 scenarios.
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CerberusIV
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Im confused. In pg2 i get a Lillehammer scenario, not a Norway scenario. And there are no non-core units in that scen. |
He is, I think, referring to the invasion of Norway scenario in the original Panzer General. In the original set of games you get a lot of core and auxiliary units but there is a limit to how many core units you can have in any particular scenario.
In PG2 the Lillehammer scenario does not have any auxiliary units and the later scenarios very few if any. I would normally have about 18 units by that stage of a campaign, maybe a couple more if I have gained any prototype units.
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CerberusIV
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quote:
Originally posted by Grumbold
I haven't got PG1&2 sitting around with a late-game save handy to fire up Kursk, Stalingrad, Invasion USA or one of the others to do an official count. I'm confident that there were scenarios with well over 40 units per side. |
IIRC the last PG scenario (invading the USA) allows for 50 core units and gives a dozen or so additional naval and air units as well. Allied General generally has smaller numbers of units, although the final US/UK invasion of Germany has a lot of units (but only 24 core).
In PG2 Kishinev is probably the scenario with the most units as you get a lot of Rumanian infantry and artillery.
The British/American/Russian campaigns in PG2 suck. They are far too easy and 6 brilliant victories out is 6 is easily achievable in all of them. The last German campaign, Defending the Reich, is the hardest. I did get as far as brilliant victories in the first 4 scenarios but had to restart several times to do it.
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CerberusIV
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
I have a question for the wargame fans here.
What's the attraction in SP wargaming? I often find that intricate TBS games are pants in SP even if they are great games, since the AI is always weak. Most wargames that I have seen are more intricate than a general TBS title, so surely this must be a factor? |
For me it is partly the chance to try, however loosely, a historical battle and see how I get on, partly to play with the toys (units) and partly convenience. SP isn't anything like as good as a human opponent but it is there when you turn the computer on.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
I have a question for the wargame fans here.
What's the attraction in SP wargaming? I often find that intricate TBS games are pants in SP even if they are great games, since the AI is always weak. Most wargames that I have seen are more intricate than a general TBS title, so surely this must be a factor? |
well first, its fun just to see the maps, the historical units (this goes for playing scens with historic setups, not for later scens in a PG type campaign) etc. Some of us are the type who love looking at maps of historical battles, OOBs, etc. A wargame is a chance to move those units around and see what happens.
And of course there are many ways of handicapping the AI. 1. shoot for a higher or faster victory level 2. Give some advanage to the AI (this of course may be ahistorical - but if youre interested in it as a GAME, after having enjoyed a runthrough as a history sim, this can work) 3. Dont play so obsessively perfectly. Play fast, fun and sloppy. I dont really want to consult a spreadsheet before every move. Its not fun. This also makes things a tad more realistic, since real commanders made mistakes, had their orders garbled, etc. And of course did not have the advantage of playing against an AI.
Also my impression is that AI's tend to be a bit stronger in TB wargames than TBS's like Civ. There isnt as much to do - no diplomacy, no choices of unit builds (again a PG campaign is an exception) the AI is built around the combat model - so the AI can be tougher.
OTOH I havent really played enough to know, but id be interested in others comments.
You also seem to assume that wargame = TB. While thats true for the 5 Star General series, and the overwhelming majority of wargames, its not true for all. Certainly here at 'poly we should all be aware of Sid Meiers Gettysburg, an RT wargame with a very strong AI.
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CerberusIV
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As LOTM suggested this as a general thread I decided to post up a report on my current try at the PG2 Blitzkrieg campaign. I am about to start Malta and the scenarios so far went like this.
Madrid - Requisition JU87B. Demolish Republican forces. Brilliant victory. Received a SiG 1B prototype - very useful.
Poland - Upgraded and requisitioned new units including Me109. Again went like clockwork, captured all locations and destroyed all but 1 Polish unit. Brilliant victory.
Suomussalmi - Added further units including AD. Northern attack problematic. Finnish unit nearly destroyed and my Pioniere badly damaged. Suomussalim went better, largely due to clear weather so I could use my air units. One Soviet infantry went walkabout and I had to use 3 Finnish units to pin it down. Unusually the Soviet armour and recon didn't try and cross the river to go south and west to steal the German supply hex. Surrounded the last objective. AI blew its prestige on a KV1 but could only position it on the small lake where a Stuka attack and repeated tank attacks destroyed it. Another brilliant victory.
Lillehammer - Added another AD and some paras. Rain to start. Dropped a para behind the artillery on the east side of the lake and broke through. On the west I used an air unit to spot the artillery, hit it with my own and waited. An AI infantry attacked my lead infantry and failed due to my artillery giving supporting fire. It then withdrew so I could move forward and take the first town. Dropped a para on the village in the NE and used another to block a Norwegian infantry moving in from the east. After that it was basically a pincer movement on Lillehammer with strong artillery support. Brilliant victory. Prototype 5cm PAK - used at Sedan then upgraded to Stug IIIB.
Sedan - Added a second Me109 and a second JU87B. Plan was one panzer division to drive west and then south and the other to take Sedan then drive south and west. A para drops to secure the town on the canal in the south and a recon unit mops up the flags in the middle of the map. All went according to plan. The objectives in the NW were not heavily defended and the French Char 1B in the SW never showed up. Brilliant victory. Lots of prestige so virtually at full strength going into...
Dunkirk - Northern group attacks NE then N to Dunkirk. Central group attacks N to take victory hexes in centre of map, then east. Drop a para behind the easternmost objective to take out the French artillery when the main assault eventually goes in. All went well in the centre and east of the map. One mistake though. South of Dunkirk is a victory hex occupied by a British recon unit. I failed to destroy it and it got pushed north onto the bridge. I destroyed it next turn but the delay was enough to prevent me taking Dunkirk in time for a brilliant victory so only an ordinary victory and no shot at Windsor 1940.
Pursuit to Tobruk - One group drives east across the desert, the other north. Time is too short to allow either to assist the other so each has to be strong enough to take its own objective. Resupply is crucial for artillery so best to get them onto rough terrain rather than sand. A recon unit takes the SW airfield and a para drop the SE one. All went OK apart from driving an infantry unit into a Brit MK IV light tank in the desert and having it reduced to half strength. Brilliant victory. Received a Sdkfz 7/1 as a prototype - useless as I have my full complement of 3 AD units, all with experience and there aren't enough deployment hexes in the next few scenarios to make any real use of it so I reassigned it and claimed the prestige points to use for something more useful.
Tobruk - Main force drives east straight at Tobruk. Succeeded after some hard fighting with air support. Second group goes SE to take Brit tanks and then objective. No problem. The Italians move south then try and sieze the airfield when the British tanks go off. Brilliant victory.
Now for Malta.
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ErikM
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Try Steve Brown's British Western Desert and Italy campaign. It is available here. Much better than default PG2 campaigns. His Russian campaign ("General Bistrov breaktrough Corps") is also very good.
It takes a bit of time to install them, but they are well worth it.
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18-03-2004 00:35
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