10-03-2004 10:49									#1
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Tassadar Posted this in the Turn TrackingII Thread

quote: I have ruled in Honghus favor.

What exactly did she ask for?

If it is to redo the turn with another turn player then I suggest the Will of the People decide. I suggest we put it to a vote among the active members.

Do we want the turn I played or do we want to do a new one.

My vote, understandably, is for the one I played.

Before you vote.
Think of the benefits that we have got.

We have taken Longreach. There are no enemy probes within range.

We emptied the Uni garrison in Longreach and Sunrise. We destroyed the Uni transport and 1-1-1 scout.

We took no losses.

In Longreach we have:
4 - Healthy choppers
1 - Hurt chopper 40% damaged
2 - Drop infantry 1~3-1

In Freedman's Park we have:

2 - Drop probes 0~1-1
1 - Drop Rover 1~1-1
1 - Needlejet
1 - Drop infantry 1~3-1

With these units we can take at least two more Uni bases perhaps 3 or 4 next turn. We can rage through Uni like the hungry wolves we are. Buster can take several as well. We can stop Uni from getting MMI.


If we replay the turn:

Buster takes most of the choice Uni bases, leaving us the scraps. (assuming his choppers are not discovered and attacked while sitting on the water)

Our choppers will make the run from Freedman's to a place where we hope they are not discovered. They will take damage on the crash landing and it is almost certain that one or more will not survive the attack they would make next turn.

Uni and hence CyCon will get MMI (they will get choppers and drop).

It is likely that our relative decline behind the Drones will continue. We may get so relatively weak that we will become a client state of theirs, or they may decide to just take us.

This is one of the reasons I have been pushing hard for Drone/Hive unification. I wanted us to unify the factions now while we are still equals rather than later when we are diminutive. Please do not misunderstand me. I like and respect Buster, but my duty is to the Hive.


The battles we waged in the east may well turn out the same.

We have no probeship that is even close to being in range of Conshelf57. It will be several turns before we can build one and get it to Conshelf57. Peace will be destroyed by then. Although unlikely, the Uni invasion may influence CyCon to move its emphasis from attacking the last Peace base (in particular the CyCon aircraft) to support CyCon?s and Peace?s eastern defenses.

We still have a shortage of aircraft to deal with everything we want to do on the eastern front:

Kill CyCon CP requires one aircraft.
Empty Conshelf57 (if we win the odds this time) requires one aircraft. We have only two needlejets in the eastern theater. One must land and refuel or crash. I think the use I made of that in-flight needlejet was rather good. It reconned on the return trip to New Moscow, found the CyCon CP, continued its trip to New Moscow, hovered over the city, killed the 4-3-1 Data Angel infantry, and is ready for use the next turn.

Place a needlejet over the Peace schooner as aircover requires one needlejet. I choose not to do this because our units did not spot the CyCon Probe foil. They should have if it was close, and Peace did not (I assume or else they would have told us) the CyCon Probe foil. One of these ships would have spotted based upon its movements.

All battles on the eastern front (I apologize if I confused some into thinking I was launching an invasion of the Data Angels homeland by my terminology) with the exception of Conshelf57 went well. Using Gooliegrad?s chopper to empty Conshelf57 did and does make sense. I was not the only one to suggest it. The battle was hard fought, but lost fair and square. It just doesn't seem right that we get the opportunity to roll the dice again.

If the request Hong Hu made to Tassadar was to replay the turn then this will be a major decision on the part of the Hive.

I suggest we get a clear vote from a majority of the active members before we decide to replay the turn.

I vote in no uncertain terms to keep the turn and roll forward to victory.

Mead

	10-03-2004 10:57									#2
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My inability to vote in Polls continues to frustrate me. I have PM'd Ming and he has tried to help me twice.

It is disheartening to find that I am having problems voting even in a Poll I posted.

My vote, as was clear by my post, is to Keep the Turn.


Mead

	10-03-2004 14:02									#3
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Your turn has already been nullified.

	10-03-2004 14:12									#4
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Still, its nice to see a democratic poll, in this demo game.

-Jam

	10-03-2004 16:17									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Still, its nice to see a democratic poll, in this demo game. -Jam

In a police state, no less .

	10-03-2004 17:20									#6
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Freaky. Its like Lal came and took over in the night.

-Jam

	10-03-2004 18:50									#7
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We can always say that Mead is simply asking for a vote of the Central Committe of the Politburo.

	11-03-2004 02:53									#8
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Bah,

I highly doubt that the Human Hive will become a client state of the Drones. If they ever took the fight to us, I'm sure we'd give them one hell of a fight. Besides, once we open up the Data Angel front, "all their base are belong to us" so to speak.

	11-03-2004 03:28									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Your turn has already been nullified.

Is this nullifiction what Hong Hu asked for?


As of now we have:

Two votes in favor of keeping the turn. (the system is not counting my vote).

Two votes in favor of not keeping the turn.

Two votes in favor of a xenobanana. I have no idea what that is. Does it mean abstain?

Tassadar says the turn has already been nullified, it can be unnullified. If it cannot, then someone else can play exactly as I did (fixing the former mistakes, although please note that some were not mistakes but rather storing teraformer turns).

I think playing the turn again is a little unfair to CyCon (but I'm sure Peace wouldn't complain), because that gives us another crack at Conshelf57.

Right now we are tied, two for keeping the turn, two for replaying, two abstaining.

Someone should follow my footsteps here. My greatest concern with the turn was that there would be an enemy probe within range of Longreach. There is not. I ask one of you to fly the exact same route I took. Fly the needlejet and a chopper through all the fungus adjacent to Longreach to verify what I saw.

To whomever who has not voted, and to those who would like to change their vote.

We have four healthy choppers (plus one that is at 40% damaged) securely located in Longreach that can rach out far throughout the Uni empire and empty the Uni bases, plus sweep clean all the hostile units they find. We have two healthy drop infantry that can take 2 to 4 Uni bases (our drop rover in Freedman's Park might also be able to take a base). There are no aircraft in any of the Uni bases. Our units are safe in Longreach.

If we move our choppers to a place somewhere in Uni territory (hoping and praying they are not seen) then Uni may be able to capture them.

Uni has one interceptor that is not accounted for. Plus they have 3 probs that are not accounted for (we know they are not in any Uni base, and we know they are not in a position to probe Longreach). One of these probes may be withing striking distance of where we park the choppers.

I understand Buster said he parked a needlejet west of Longreach to give us aircover. If I was CyCon I would gladly swap my interceptor to kill the Drone needlejet, then use my probe to capture those (OK, moderately damaged 30% because Hive crashlanded them) choppers.

Comrades

Right now we are deadlocked (2-2-2). If you have not voted consider the game and vote for the turn. If you have already cast your vote then I ask you to reconsider and let us know you are changing it.


Mead

	11-03-2004 03:51									#10
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Comrade Mead,

Has the CyCon or anyone else besides the Hive see the turn before it was nullified?

This is what is preventing me from voting until I get this information.

	11-03-2004 04:27									#11
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quote: Comrade Mead, Has the CyCon or anyone else besides the Hive see the turn before it was nullified? This is what is preventing me from voting until I get this information.

I only posted the turn within the internal Hive forum. No other factions should have seen it or should have knowledge of what is happening within our forum. That being said only Hive members, Kody (who drops into our private forum from time to time), Tassadar and Googlie should have seen it.

I have seen indications that (in the public Thread "The NON-ISSUE") that Maniac has some knowledge of what is happening. I don't know how he knows, or to what extent.

If it will help, wait until someone else flies the exact same route I flew our aircraft around Longreach to verify there are no enemy probes in the nearby fungus or otherwise within striking distance of Longreach. Let them verify that the Aerospace equipped forward operation launchpad we (and the Drones) have in Longreach is secure and ready to launch deep and substantial attaks next turn. Let them verify what I saw.


Mead

	11-03-2004 04:31									#12
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I forgot to add.

Buster knows about the turn I played.

I consulted him in the Drone embassy before I launched the attack (and got his OK).

Hong Hu informed him of the results of the attack.


Mead

	11-03-2004 05:58									#13
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CHANGED VOTE.

Go on, post the damned thing then.

-Jam

	11-03-2004 06:25									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski CHANGED VOTE. Go on, post the damned thing then. -Jam

Thanks Jamski

Did you have a No vote or a banana vote before?

Right now we have:

(3-1-2) or (3-2-1)

Favoring posting the turn.

Mead

	11-03-2004 08:45									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Mead Two votes in favor of a xenobanana. I have no idea what that is. Does it mean abstain?

"Banana" votes on Apolyton are abstain votes. The tradition of replacing the abstain option in any poll with the word "banana" apparently began a very long time ago on this site. I had once believed it arose because in the first Civ3 Democracy Game we had a very jungle-heavy starting area and the roleplay in the game became rather obsessed with bananas. I have since learned that the tradition on the site may well predate that by a good bit.

For whatever reason, the abstain option in polls on this site is typically "banana" rather than "abstain". For the ACDG, people have apparently decided to be cute and call it a "xenobanana".

	11-03-2004 09:36									#16
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I just voted No. It right now shows 1-4-2, add Mead's vote and change Jamski's vote (not sure that one) it might become 3-3-2?

The reason I do not think that Comrade Mead's turn should be used, is that we cannot judge whether we should use a turn based on the result. It was decided at the time of the turn by the majority of active players and the CMC chairman that we should not start the univ war until the next turn. That order is not followed. It is not right that we look at how the result is in favor of us and then decide whether we keep the turn. We need to follow what is decided.

Now let me also comment on the result. If we play according to the plan, we have agreed that Drones and Hive will each get half of the uni bases as long as we contribute same amount of forces. Buster has even done things for us by sending one of his plane to our advanced troop. There is nowhere saying that Drones' will take most uni bases and we only get "craps".

Now what Mead's play resulted is that the Drones will not be able to take sunshine coast because it is reduced to size 1. Instead of carrying out the attacking plan in their turn, they can either use longreach as a stop, or order their force go home. There will be bases that are out of range from longreach where we planned to attack from sunshine coast. Basically, it would not be possible for the Drones and Hive to each occupy six or seven uni bases by the end of our turn 2161 and slice up the entire uni territory. Rather, it is possible that we would get about four or five bases and drones may only get one or two bases. If we can't occupy most if all of uni bases by the end of our turn 2161 the univ will get MMI.

I understand the reason Comrade Mead insists that his turn should be used is that he believe it is more beneficial to the Hive. What I would like to say is that is is not more beneficial to us in the sense that if the joint attack plan is disrupted and the Drones only get one chance to attack before our turn 2161 then the uni gets MMI and CC gets MMI from uni before the Drones' turn 2161. It is not only bad for the Drones. It is definitely bad for the Hive. We need to be able to see a little farther then the current turn.

Last, I would like to repeat the reason I oppose to use Mead's turn is not because I have a different interpretation of his result. It is because I believe the principle of a demo game that decisions of the team be carried should be upheld no matter what.

	11-03-2004 09:51									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

I already manually added Meads vote after he said he couldn't vote.

	11-03-2004 09:51									#18
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I would like to know who would be redoing the turn. Would you redo it according to the old orders Comrade Mead? Or should I do it? Can Comrade Rubin do it? Or somebody else?

I don't think it is something that we should argue about redo the turn. The turn was not done appropriately because the orders are not carried out. We must carry out those orders no matter if people changed their minds or not. I would like to express my strong opposition to that turn or redo the turn exceptly like how it was done. If the gods ruled that it is how it should be done then I would abide. If the majority decide that we should use the old turn simply because it is good for us, I will quit the game. Because it would not be the demo game that I understand it is then.

	11-03-2004 12:49									#19
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quote: f the majority decide that we should use the old turn simply because it is good for us, I will quit the game. Because it would not be the demo game that I understand it is then.

Change my vote back to DON'T KEEP THE TURN then.

Let's replay it.

-Jam

	11-03-2004 13:14									#20
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I voted 'No'.

Comrade HongHu's previous post in another thread made me see how things are.

And I'm not saying this just because I want to sound like a sycophant, but really do believe it.

Patience Comrades. The CPU will get theirs and the Drone-Hive alliance will be eating cake in the CyCon capital before you know it.

	11-03-2004 13:14									#21
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It looks pretty clear that we're going to end up replaying. Only question is who is doing it, as HongHu said. Mead, HongHu, or Rubin? (I presume those are the only options).

	11-03-2004 13:19									#22
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Yeah, I don't have 'X'.

	11-03-2004 21:08									#23
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God tass, how long do we have before we must post a turn? I would prefer somebody else do it because I really shouldn't be doing the turns any more. However if Mead and Rubin or everybody else do not feel up to it I would post my turn.

	11-03-2004 23:10									#24
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I guess if we decided mead is the turnplayer then he should replay it the best possible ignoring whatever he might know he shouldnt and playing accordingly to CMC's decitions.