10-03-2004 17:44									#1
	Handling Anarchy Scientifically Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

As everyone knows, when anarchy comes, cities' normal production grinds to a halt. Even the Civil Engineers go on strike and stop producing anything. Cities can grow if they can get enough food without rioting. But that still leaves the question of what to do with cities that cannot grow anymore.

The answer is found in tax collectors and scientists, both of whom continue to function normally in spite of the anarchy. Since I normally use scientists, I'll write in those terms, but the same tricks would work with tax collectors if a player prefers.

With scientists, cities that can no longer grow can continue producing some value by changing as many laborers as possible without starving into scientists. When cities are at size 12 and max food and normally run a food surplus, it may even make sense to run a food deficit while in anarchy to support extra scientists. Citizens that normally work mountains are always better off as scientists, since they don't produce food either way and wealth and shields from tiles are irrelevant. Hills are another good source of possible scientists since they produce relatively little food, as are deserts (except for irrigated ones for agricultural civs). And changing which cities work which tiles can sometimes allow additional scientists (for example, pulling laborers from land tiles to water tiles so a neighboring city can have a grassland laborer and a scientist instead of two hill laborers).

Obviously, a fair amount of micromanagement is involved in using that approach, and not every player will view it as worth the hassle. But there is at least a little bit of profit to be had for those willing to micromanage.

Nathan

	10-03-2004 18:02									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Good Job Nathan:

You have raised an interesting point on micromagement, and one which I suspect that even experienced players do not take into full account. I see this as useful on all levels, but most applicable to emperor and above as those levels need more micromanagement than the lower levels. I know that I will be using this in my future games, even though I do not use much MM.

	10-03-2004 19:24									#3
	Tired of ads?

I definitely do this when in anarchy. Any city that can make a scientist and not starve or go into revolt does so.

It usually doesn't take much MMing, because it's usually 1 or 0 per city (some cities will probably require entertainers, and most, unless they have lots of bonus food resources, will not have enough food to support more than 2 specialists).

-Arrian

	10-03-2004 20:29									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If you really want to abuse the new uber-scientists, let your cities revolt during anarchy. During the next turn, set all the citizens to scientists. You won't get any starvation because food doesn't get counted during a riot. Rinse and repeat. With 3-beaker corruption-free scientists you can get 4-turn research rate even in anarchy!

	10-03-2004 20:46									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I was hoping such exploits would be kept secret for the better good of all...sigh.

	10-03-2004 20:48									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I never thought of that, alexman.

I think I'll forget you said that.

-Arrian

	10-03-2004 23:09									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Where is the evil grin when you need one?

	11-03-2004 00:45									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Ohhh... that is evil! I'm going to have to try that... er... I mean... not try it...

	11-03-2004 01:22									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Now, should Alexman's heresy be called "The Revolt of the Scientists" or "The Revenge of the Nerds"?

	11-03-2004 05:53									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hmmm... how would one *force* cities to revolt?

Great observation in the original post, Nathan.

	11-03-2004 07:49									#12
	Suffering from ads?

Good post, Nathan.

Not sure if this has been covered before in the Forum, how does the game determine how many turns of Anarchy when changing government ? assuming we are not playing religious of course.

	11-03-2004 09:30									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Dominae I was hoping such exploits would be kept secret for the better good of all...sigh.

...except when you use them in MP...

[Sorry. I know you're about the last person who could be accused of using exploits!]

	11-03-2004 10:01									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Dominae I was hoping such exploits would be kept secret for the better good of all...sigh.

Firaxis, patch this space.....I mean, watch this space.

	11-03-2004 14:51									#15
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by rush , how does the game determine how many turns of Anarchy when changing government ? assuming we are not playing religious of course.

It's between 1 and 8. The two factor ares, 0-3 depending on empire size, 1-5 by some randomness.

This exploit is 'new' to me, at least in civ3. I remember doing almost the same in civ2.


Another dirty tool in the box

	11-03-2004 15:09									#16
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by alexman If you really want to abuse the new uber-scientists, let your cities revolt during anarchy. During the next turn, set all the citizens to scientists. You won't get any starvation because food doesn't get counted during a riot. Rinse and repeat. With 3-beaker corruption-free scientists you can get 4-turn research rate even in anarchy!

Now that's really evil. So far I used only taken cities while starving them down as super science cities, but letting them riot by purpose is a smart move... a bit exploitative though.

	11-03-2004 16:40									#17
	Remove this text

Don't you risk losing some city improvement while your city revolts?

	11-03-2004 17:00									#18
	Got spare money?

Only if the revolt last longer than 1 turn...and only if ypou have improvements to lose

If not, you have to do the 'on/off' trick

	11-03-2004 17:34									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by bongo It's between 1 and 8. The two factor ares, 0-3 depending on empire size, 1-5 by some randomness.

thanks. in the last 2 games i got 8 (Dutch, Monarch, standard map) and 7 (Sumeria, Emperor, standard map). Looks like randomness is not treating me well.

Is empire size bigger means more turns of anarchy ?

	11-03-2004 17:42									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by rush Is empire size bigger means more turns of anarchy ?

Yes.

Never tried, but if you only had one city, then anarchy would take a maximum of 5 turns.

	11-03-2004 19:52									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by bongo It's between 1 and 8. The two factor ares, 0-3 depending on empire size, 1-5 by some randomness.

Actually, in C3C in can be at least as many as 9 turns. Too many, if you ask me. It makes it rarely worth it to switch governments more than once.

By the way, you can see the exact number of anarchy turns remaining from the F1 advisor.

	11-03-2004 20:07									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Hmmm... how would one *force* cities to revolt?

I don't know about real life (I don't have one), but in civ it's easy since you lose MP and luxury slider effects in anarchy. If that's not enough, you can always disconnect some luxuries.

	11-03-2004 22:24									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think you're talking about rioting, not revolting. In the Call to Power games (or at least the first one), cities that were sufficiently unhappy really could revolt and become barbarian.

I've gotten to where I use the technique of alternating turns of rioting and turns of calm food loss with cities that would have to run a significant food deficit to avoid rioting. That cuts the food loss roughly in half but still avoids losing improvements.

Personally, I think Firaxis overdid it in making anarchy bad. Losing all your production and non-specialist income is bad enough, but being forced potentially to watch cities either starve down in size or lose improvements you spent a lot of time building makes it even worse. To me, the game would be a whole lot more fun if anarchy were shorter and a little bit less extreme.

	11-03-2004 22:47									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Perhaps this... 'feature' is the Civ programmer's artistic interpretation of "Necessity is the mother of Invention"?

Or perhaps Motorized Transport or Fission if you're -really- lucky?.......

	12-03-2004 18:52									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hmm. Does this hold for engineers as well?

*evil thoughts about continueing to put out troops despite being in anarchy *

	12-03-2004 18:58									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Two problems, yxhuvud,
1) Civic engineers only work on buildings
2) They don't work during anarchy. (I suppose this is the overiding point, though)

Last edited by Krill on 13-03-2004 at 01:02

	13-03-2004 00:22									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Krill Two problems, yxhuvud, 1) Civic engineers only work on buildings 2) They don't work during anarchy. (I suppose this is the overiding pint, though)

if it wasn't for the latter, you could build a building (say, a palace) and then switch to a troop when you have accrued enough shields, producing the unit.

i've done something like that while in anarchy. one of my friends tried to assault me when i was in anarchy, knowing this would be my weakest time for a while. so i switched all my buildings to units, at a loss of shields. the units popped out though, much to his chagrin

	13-03-2004 01:40									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX i've done something like that while in anarchy. one of my friends tried to assault me when i was in anarchy, knowing this would be my weakest time for a while. so i switched all my buildings to units, at a loss of shields. the units popped out though, much to his chagrin

A bit evil but very satisfying I guess