11-03-2004 01:34									#1
	Quest for the Seven Cities of Gold Remove this text

OK, I lied, but the topic sounds good!

I never have enough cash, and then I have the same problem in Civ3 and C3C. Many of you write that you have tons of cash available for unit upgrades and rushing key buildings; I tend to upgrade piecemeal and wait for cash to rush a single building. My usual path is Republic and Democracy, and since Civ2 I tend to be a commerce fiend. My AI opponents never seem to have much cash for gpt deals, either.

My working assumption is that I overbuild, putting too many structures in my cities, but when I look on the F1 screen I see that my biggest cost centers are science and corruption followed by unit costs, with maintenance way down the list.

I just glanced through the Must Read Threads list, and there really isn't much there on economic development beyond the early game and the Draft Guide (which is a bit elementary and by now a bit dated).

So what do you tend to build (and NOT build) in your palace core cities, in your FP core cities, in your semi-productive cities, and in your totally corrupt cities? Now obviously this would vary between REXers and CRAMmers, and between Builders and Warmongers, so I'm asking about your own preferences.

I know, I know, "It depends!"

	11-03-2004 01:54									#2
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Yup it depends. If you look at some of the PTW AAR/DAR's you can see some of the methods and when they match up.

	11-03-2004 02:04									#3
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A popular way to make more money than you can spend is to sell techs to the AI for gold per turn.

Also try Communism. You can't rush any improvements, so you're forced to accumulate cash or spend it on extravagances like espionage.

	11-03-2004 02:59									#4
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For me, it depends on the stage in the game.

I'll offer up an example from last night. My girlfriend has been playing a bit more lately, and likes it when I hang out and advise her. The problem is that my "advice" gradually becomes control. But that's another matter.

On my suggestion, she decided to try the Dutch. We restarted a few times to get her a decent starting spot (my definition of decent may or may not jive with others) and after a string of pretty bad ones, got a freaking amazing one (river, 2 wheat on floodplains, 3 wheat on plains, some desert, some regular floodplains, and a bunch of hills). Wow. This is where "advice" kinda went out the window... I was practically salivating over what I could do with that start, especially on Monarch level.

But that's all background. To the economic development:

Stage 1: set up settler pump in Amsterdam. After moving the settler 1 tile, we founded, punched out 2-3 warriors, a second worker, and a granary. We weathered a sneak attack by a German archer.

Stage2: found 2nd city next to wheat on fp tiles so it can use the one Amsterdam isn't using. This city is out worker pump. It's been pumping nothing but workers ever since, with one detour for a temple.

Stage3: REXplosion. 4-tile spacing, mostly. Managed to hook up 2 luxuries pretty fast, and eventually claimed a 3rd (although 2 out of 3 are solo sources). War with Germany assisted via alliance with Russia. Sneak attack by Aztecs, dealt with via our own troops as well as alliance with Russia. Peace with Germany.

Stage4: Consolidation. The first 2 buildings we had beyond the granary and 2 barracks were libraries, since we were researching full-bore. After that, Amsterdam built a temple, and then it and the two barracks towns went ahead and put down marketplaces (those being our best production cities). The coastal towns (many) built harbors/aqueducts as needed and started on markets. Some have temples. One built the Great Lighthouse.

The worker pump really came in handy when I decided to stop using Amsterdam as the settler pump. I had ~5 workers roading & mining hills around Amsterdam as its settler-building days were winding down, and as they finished, they joined the city. Before long, it was size12, and producing 21spt in despotism.

Via our seafaring trait we met the entire world before we even completed the lighthouse. Tech trades with some backwards nations netted us a bunch of gold (code of laws to france for 320 gold upon first contact, for instance).

We hit the medieval age, researched feudalism, and then went with single scientist research on Engineering and 100% tax (by this point, the Great Lighthouse enabled the import of 2 luxuries, bringing us up to 5 total) to finance a mass warrior -> med inf upgrade. War on the Germans commenced shortly thereafter (they have the Pyramids).

Staying in despotism so long when we had republic so early (research was writing, code of laws, philo -> republic [free tech], map making, math, currency, construction, polytheism) may have been a mistake economically, but we wanted to ensure we would get the Lighthouse. After that was done, I wanted to finish the unit upgrades pick a fight before revolting. By the time that was done, Sun Tzu was a mere 3 turns from completion. I saved the game with 1 turn left on Sun Tzu, still in despotism. If we actually continue the game, I would revolt the following turn.

The unit upgrades cost around 1500 gold. I'd say there were ~15 warriors, and I also upgraded a couple of spears to Swiss Mercs (not for USE, though, no GA yet).

So in this particular case, the extravagant upgrade costs were affordable because of a VERY powerful REX, coupled with the seafaring trait (extra commerce in coastal towns, of which we had many, plus ability to make contact overseas and get a bunch of money out of the AI), plus the Great Lighthouse (ability to trade for luxuries in exchange for tech, so no need for the luxury slider), plus the building of a marketplace in our capital, which was pumped up to size 12, plus the use of 100% tax rate. At 100% tax, the empire was pulling in ~95gpt surplus. One med inf upgrade per turn. We started with ~400 gold in the bank, so it didn't take that long.

-Arrian

	11-03-2004 06:01									#5
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MM + REX + MEX = production lead -> branch research lead = mucho dinero

	11-03-2004 09:27									#6
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Yup it depends. If you look at some of the PTW AAR/DAR's you can see some of the methods and when they match up.

There are rather a lot of those; could you recommend 2 or 3 (yours or ones you admire)?

Arrian: Thanks for the example!

quote: Originally posted by Alexman A popular way to make more money than you can spend is to sell techs to the AI for gold per turn.

In my limited experience I'm finding that the AI doesn't have much more gold than I do, and often are dirt poor. This may change by the time I can offer techs like Fission, but my focus was earlier on. An idea occurred to me...I've never tried OCC in Civ3, but I did a lot of those in Civ2, and it was only feasible because the AI adapted its strategy to yours. So since I only built one city, the AI civs didn't build very many (where if I went all-out for tech the AI did a lot of research, and the same thing if I was building a lot of cities or units). Might something similar be going on here?

The other thought I had was that since I've been playing at Regent and Monarch, the AI doesn't have the bonuses that come at Emperor+, so maybe the AI has *less* money at my level.

quote: MM + REX + MEX = production lead -> branch research lead = mucho dinero

MM - check!
REX - check!
MEX - ??? [Drat! I'm out of Don Eduardo Anejo!]

	11-03-2004 11:24									#7
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Hermann the Lombard I would say that Dominae usually does very detailed reports. I know others do as well, but I can't remember how much detail they did.

	11-03-2004 17:25									#8
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Hermann the Lombard,

Some piece of advice, since I usually manage to get insane amounts of money during my plays (you might check the 'Emperor' thread).

1. Build only the necessary buildings.
No barracks if your city is a settler's pump, no cathedral if your city is size 6 and there are no entertainers etc.

2. Keep your military down.
If you don't plan to go to war, built a 'light' military. When you switch to Republic, get rid of all the inner cities MP and either upgarde or disband the others. At the beginning of the Modern Age, if you don't plan to conquer another civ, disband your soon-to-become-useless cavalry (edit - I almost got caught on that, see my screenshot on my thread!).

3. Pay special attention to your border cities.
Don't build useless improvements in your corrupted cities. A bank in a 1 shield, 2 gold net output city is a waste.

4. Build all gold-making improvements.
Marketplace, courthouse, bank, stock exchange, harbour, commercial dock...

5. Build free maintenance wonders (if you can).
Pyramids, Sun Tsu and especially Smith!
Then add immediately Wall Street.

6. Trade.
Trade all your techs away (except if you want a lead on a Wonder, like Economics for Smith). The AI will get your techs anyway. Keeping a 1 tech lead is often enough.
Research techs with a high value to the AI (Republic, Economics, Democracy for instance).

7. Fine-tune your research.
There is no point researching at 4 turns if by researching at 5 turns you keep the lead.

8. Benchmark
AU postings and my 'Emperor' thread have lots of screenshots/reports about economics. Play one of those games and compare the achievements.

10. Ask for advice if you feel 'poor'

	11-03-2004 18:27									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

In one of my recent games I discovered what can happen if you use a slight lead wisely. In the late Middle Ages, I discovered a tech (after vast amounts of research) that no-one else had and that was considerably more "advanced" than anything else at the time. I had, until that stage, been slightly behind the tech leaders, but I was lucky that none of them had gone for the same limb of the tech tree as me. I therefore sold this one off to the other developed nations, one by one, in exchange for their less valuable techs and gold - most notably gpt. This allowed me to turn up the science slider and, oh joy, do it again, increasing the gpt I was getting. This actually happened several times. Each time, my economy grew stronger, because I was essentially pumping the gains back into the gold/science machine and creating more. It was like having another Golden Age. After a while of this, pretty much the entire economic activity of the whole planet was passing through my hands. The trick, I suppose, is to research wisely and also invest wisely; but I don't know how easy it would be to duplicate this "snowball" effect.

	11-03-2004 19:07									#10
	Re: Quest for the Seven Cities of Gold Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard OK, I lied, but the topic sounds good! I never have enough cash, and then I have the same problem in Civ3 and C3C. Many of you write that you have tons of cash available for unit upgrades and rushing key buildings; I tend to upgrade piecemeal and wait for cash to rush a single building. My usual path is Republic and Democracy, and since Civ2 I tend to be a commerce fiend. My AI opponents never seem to have much cash for gpt deals, either. My working assumption is that I overbuild.......

I seriously doubt that you are overbuilding, as a city with all improvements would only expend 26 gpt in maintenence costs.

Here are a couple of thoughts on the subject:

1. You may have not built enough commercial improvements or corruption reducers. All core cities should have all of the corruption, scientific, and commercial improvements (if you have enough lux's you may be able to skip the colluseums and cathedrals but I build those too).

2. There is no such thing as a semi-productive city, either its hopelessly corrupt or it could be developed to be a gem.

3. Check your FP placement, particularly in C3C. I tend to place my FP in the core and move the palace to gradually increase the number of productive cities (I move it about 5 times per game) Although you do lose some gold early in the move (due to corruption increase) you tend to make it back within the next 10-20 turns (after marketplaces are built)

4. Chek on your empire development, are all of the tiles worked? Roaded? RR"s? When assignig workers make sure that tile to be improved can be worked by a citizen when the improvement is completed.

5. Check the sliders religiously, often many gold can be picked up just by adjusting your research or luxury levels.

6. Make sure you military is appropriate for your tasks, in C3C, republic has a maintenence cost of 2gpt per unit once you exceed the free maintenece per city. If you tend to be on the offensive then a larger military may be appropriate. If you intend to be a builder then just build enough units to defend yourself.

Here is a typical build pattern for a productive city, up to the modern age:

1. Temple
2. Marketplace
3. Factory (when available)
4 Library
5. Courthouse
6. Aqueduct (if needed)
7. Bank
8. University
9. Cathedral
10. Stock Exchange
11. Police Station
12. Colluseum (if needed)

If a city is located on a costal area I add a harbor after the temple and a commercial dock after the cathedral.

Barracks are built as needed (I tend to buld in a three way rotation. (Worker/Settler, Unit, Improvement) with the barracks the first 'unit'

	11-03-2004 21:06									#11
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Military EXpansion

	11-03-2004 23:40									#12
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Thanks for the advice (though I'll still take the tequila). Does anyone remember a Civ2 thread here about "the worst mistakes you've made"? I particularly remember a response where each blooper was followed by a variant on "I swear it wasn't the beer."

I was vaguely monitoring the Emperor thread; sounds like I need to study it more closely. I'll also look for some of Dominae's replays.

	12-03-2004 02:55									#13
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I'm one of those folks that picks up pennies they find on the ground. A penny saved is a penny earned. Find a penny, pick it up, all day long you'll have good luck. (The "luck" I believe is that you are a tiny bit richer, but that's a bit philosophical.)

Anyway, I've "discovered" a phenomenon that I am calling (well, for the first time, actually) Slider Slack.

quote: 5. Check the sliders religiously, often many gold can be picked up just by adjusting your research or luxury levels.

5a. Do not allow one slider to be adjusted by another.

Why? How about an illustration of my observation, then an explanation of 5a.

I have 2 or 3 towns growning, with one fluctuating population regularly(settlers) and the other simply growing for the most part.

Let's say my sliders are at 80s-20l-0t.
At some point, one of the towns grows into unhappiness. Accidentally, instead of increasing the Luxury slider, I decrease the Science slider, so now I'm at 70s-20l-10t.
Guess what happened.
The unhappy town is now contented - with the same luxury rate.

Hmm... curious, but having recently read a little(and understood less) about Commerce, I formulate a rash theory.

Due to the way the sliders and their allocation percentages are applied on a per town basis, a change in one slider that creates a tax surplus(Slider Slack) actually affects the other slider, most likely due to Rounding of fractional commerce, most noticable at lower levels of commerce.

So what am I trying to say here?
If you are running 0% tax and need to increase your luxury spending don't increase luxury spending directly.
Instead, decrease science spending first to create Slider Slack and see if any potential change in the rounding of fractional commerce causes the actual luxury slider increase to be redundant.

Will you get rich this way?
Well, probably not directly, but like I said, a penny saved is a penny earned. You never know when you'll be a penny short.


Disclaimer: This is all based on recent observations and I know that "what happened" is accurate. My theory as to why is probably not quite as accurate and will hopefully be cleared up by someone more intimate with the specifics.

	13-03-2004 03:54									#14
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Ducki! Shame on you! Weren't you the one not so long ago complaining about the amount of micromanagement needed to run a settler pump??? AIEEEE! Wash your mouth out with soap! [Fascinating discovery, BTW.]

	13-03-2004 07:23									#15
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quote: Originally posted by ducki .... This is all based on recent observations and I know that "what happened" is accurate. My theory as to why is probably not quite as accurate and will hopefully be cleared up by someone more intimate with the specifics.

This has been my observations as well, although I had not seen any specific examples of this. As a practical matter my primary changes are with the Science slider and I increase the Luxury slider only when happiness needs to be increased accross the empire. If a city or two needs happiness then I adjust the science slider or assign additional MP's or enertainers.

	13-03-2004 08:21									#16
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I've been noticing this mostly in the early game, when corruption is not an issue and when using an entertainer would unnecessarily slow my growth. We're talking less than 6 towns.

In fact, had it been after Expansion was over, I'd never have noticed. But when there's only 3 or 4 rows(cities) and maybe (edit)double that in citizens _total_, anomolies are hard to miss.

Additionally, once your important cities have grown enough that you have enough commerce, I doubt that rounding anomolies crop up nearly as often, though I haven't put pencil to paper on it.

Hermann - this is probably a very easy amount of MM to add to your bag of tricks - nowhere near as cumbersome as a settler pump or worse, a settler pump sharing tiles with a worker pump. All it requires is that you create slider slack with the Research slider before taking the slack back in with the luxury slider. Since the slider is a trial-and-error sort of interface anyway, it's a rather small variation on your normal mouse-clicks.

But yeah, if I'd found it on purpose, that would be something truly extraordinary for me.

Last edited by ducki on 13-03-2004 at 10:58

	19-03-2004 23:55									#17
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Help! Could somebody give me a link or three to useful AARs or DARs in this context? Searching for "Dominae anything" produces an appalling number of hits of extremely dubious value to this question. Thanks.

	20-03-2004 02:18									#18
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Specifically, the ability to save up a bunch of gold for unit upgrades and wreck some AI empires?

Well, I don't know for sure, but I think it's a good bet that AU502 - which is supposed to start this weekend - will produce several such DARs.

-Arrian

	20-03-2004 02:35									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Specifically, the ability to save up a bunch of gold for unit upgrades and wreck some AI empires? Well, I don't know for sure, but I think it's a good bet that AU502 - which is supposed to start this weekend - will produce several such DARs. -Arrian

Actually AU501 has several DARs that deal with that specific thing. Though wading through might be a task. I can point you to my own DARs in that game as I did slow research on writing for the sole purpose of saving up gold for warrior to swordsman upgrades to wreck Japan. And then I researched slowly again for gold for horseman to knight upgrades to affect a genocidal war on the Hittites and Sumerians.

	20-03-2004 04:26									#20
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I'd look at the QSC timelines over at Civfanatics. You can check several different approaches to a map and see how people make cash, push the tech rate, and/or expand.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/qsc/qsc15/index.shtml

I remember in QSC15 I went for as much cash as possible. Think Moonsinger had a bit more cash than I did, so check her timeline. (checking the Excel spreadsheet she had 1493g to my 1417g, at 1000BC... nice river start with a Cow)

	22-03-2004 22:52									#21
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Arrian: AU502? I haven't quite finished AU501 (at 64% toward a domination victory).

Rotherill: I have slogged through those, except for the post-game thread, though not with that specific problem in mind. Thanks, I'll re-read yours.

Aeson: thanks. That sounds like what I have in mind. vmxa1 had mentioned Dominae's.