12-03-2004 00:32									#1
	What is to prevent any 'abused' group from following the Gay marriage example? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Regardless of anyone's views on gay marriage we must face one inevitable outcome if the marriages are allowed to stand even though in violation of current local laws. The justification is that "equality under the law" trumps the lesser laws which are therefore unconstitutional, null and void.

Actually, I personally agree with that concept and it is enforced by several of this nation's founders. The whole idea of the constitution and the Bill of Rights was to protect the people from a government that may someday be out of control and deny basic human rights by force of new laws. But the basic rights DO supercede the lesser laws and they in fact MAY be violated in favour of the supreme law of the land as it is spelled out in the US and State constitutions.

So now we have various groups that have been saying this for years (militias and gun owners for example). On what basis are these groups to be restrained now? If I am pulled over for a traffic ticket I can say that my rights are being violated and cite various parts of the constitution but the law says "too bad". Only after years of jangling in the courts can I hope to have my complaint heard.

In the instance of gay marriages public officials have violated the 'lesser laws' and now claim they acted lawfully. It seems like this opens up a huge can of worms. Can we put them back in the can or should we just allow everyone to follow the constitutuion as they see fit and as they interpret it? Please don't argue here about the pros and cons of gay marriage as that is not the topic of this thread.

	12-03-2004 00:40									#2
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It depends on how quickly the local officials get slapped down. If thier actions are allowed to stand, I expect it to happen quite often.

	12-03-2004 03:56									#3
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quote: On what basis are these groups to be restrained now?

Becuase they are groups, not individuals.

If the government has the right and ability to regulate civl marriage (ie, stating that two people have a commitment to each other and rights vis a vi each other other individual in society lack), then it has to find compelling reasons to state that certain individual can't participate in this system. There is really no compelling interest to say gays can not marry.

The state would have a better case staing convicted felons could not get married after coming out of prison than to say gays can't marry.

	12-03-2004 04:30									#4
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quote: If the government has the right and ability to regulate civil marriage

If they have this right, then they also have a right to deny marriage to whomever they choose.

quote: then it has to find compelling reasons to state that certain individual can't participate in this system.

But all individuals have access to the system. No individual is prevented from getting married.

	12-03-2004 04:32									#5
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slavery was once the law of the land too

gay-haters

if there's a hell, those who hate are going to burn in it

	12-03-2004 04:44									#6
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Can someone explain to me why a country which calls itself the "land of the free" has such a conformist streak on issues like marriage?

	12-03-2004 04:49									#7
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BoR is stupid, because it implies that those are the only rights allowed to an individual, which is ridiculous.

	12-03-2004 04:51									#8
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Insecurity. Same reason for the massive military.

	12-03-2004 04:55									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If they have this right, then they also have a right to deny marriage to whomever they choose.

Lets stop the evil muslims and blacks from gettign married and the benefits of benig married Im with you ben

	12-03-2004 04:56									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia BoR is stupid, because it implies that those are the only rights allowed to an individual, which is ridiculous.

Uh, "allowed" by who? Other than the bill of rights, I mean.

	12-03-2004 05:04									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Can someone explain to me why a country which calls itself the "land of the free" has such a conformist streak on issues like marriage?

Does the land of Oz allow governments to pick and choose which laws they will and will not follow?

	12-03-2004 06:34									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If they have this right, then they also have a right to deny marriage to whomever they choose.

No, we in the U.S. have an equal protection ammendment, see?

	12-03-2004 06:52									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Can someone explain to me why a country which calls itself the "land of the free" has such a conformist streak on issues like marriage?

Well, simply put, I can sum it up in one word:

Puritans.

For example: Take for instance the birth of Capitalism in America. Puritans wanted to work in a calling (to be in grace with God). We today are forced to (work) - though hardly anyone today would say that they're working to ensure their entrance into heaven (except possibly for the clergy). It's inbred into the American psyche.

	12-03-2004 06:53									#14
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Lincoln, quite right. While I am definitely in favor of homosexual marriage rights, I see this as perhaps going forward in a scary way. A precedent may be set that if certain localities don't agree with a law they can try to ignore it and wait for it to be vindicated by the courts. The nullification argument, which we though was struck down by Andy Jackson and the Civil War seems to be back... and it could be a very scary thing (imagine a city that decides the assault weapons ban is violating the 2nd amendment, etc).

	12-03-2004 06:53									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi But all individuals have access to the system. No individual is prevented from getting married.

What about hermaphrodites?

	12-03-2004 06:54									#16
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quote: Uh, "allowed" by who? Other than the bill of rights, I mean.

natural rights.

	12-03-2004 07:01									#17
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Eh, "natural rights" is a bit of an oxymoron IMO. When I hear the word "right," I think of something I'm entitled to, that I deserve or have worked for. A newborn child has done precisely nothing to deserve anything at all. Natural rights are only the wide berth we agree to give each other for mutual convenience.

	12-03-2004 07:03									#18
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Touche' Elok. I would have to say that it is closer to "Human Rights."

	12-03-2004 07:05									#19
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Really, it comes down to how big the movement is.

	12-03-2004 07:08									#20
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Actually, its rather large if you consider the rest of the world....

	12-03-2004 07:08									#21
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I'm about to have a a big movement myself. 'Scuse me for a few...

	12-03-2004 07:08									#22
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quote: Originally posted by bipolarbear Really, it comes down to how big the movement is.

Popularity justifies nullification?

	12-03-2004 07:16									#23
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Popularity justifies nullification?

Actually, it can...take for instance Prohibition...

	12-03-2004 07:20									#24
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The Confederacy.

	12-03-2004 07:21									#25
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Rosa Parks

	12-03-2004 07:22									#26
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Had nothing to do with the machinery of government. So try again.

	12-03-2004 07:22									#27
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Terrell Owens... oh wait.. he only thinks he's like Rosa Parks .

--

Btw, neither Prohibition nor Rosa Parks are 'nullification'. Nullification is lower level government ignoring higher level government. Both Parks and Prohibition are civil disobedience. Slight difference, but with very large consequences.

	12-03-2004 07:44									#28
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quote: Eh, "natural rights" is a bit of an oxymoron IMO. When I hear the word "right," I think of something I'm entitled to, that I deserve or have worked for. A newborn child has done precisely nothing to deserve anything at all. Natural rights are only the wide berth we agree to give each other for mutual convenience.

actually, a newborn child has done something to deserve everthing - they are alive. being alive entitles you to all of those rights.

	12-03-2004 07:45									#29
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quote: Popularity justifies nullification?

I'm not saying that it does morally, but I think that in terms of wether or not people will allow it, the majority will tend to rule. People always seem to seek a contention with the majority, or at least they tend to be happier when the majority agrees with them.

	12-03-2004 07:56									#30
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Ah, I see your point Bipolar...it can relate to the fundamental element of being "human."