12-03-2004 19:32									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: * Electronics requirement removed from Motorized Transportation * Radio Tech removed * Advanced Flight now requires Electronics * Civil Defense requires Electronics * Industrial Tech Page updated to reflect change * Radar Towers require Advanced Flight

Woah. Some big changes here, particularly the removal of a tech (Radio) and removal of Electronics as a prereq for MT.

-Arrian

	12-03-2004 23:13									#32
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

A long time ago when I used to play this game, I was blasting a city with a HUGE number of Arty. Yet, the city continued to grow in population, and no improvements were being destroyed including the Barracks. Thus, the units would be healed completely in the next turn. Absolutely RETARDED!!!!!!

Is there no effort to fix something, that USED to work properly.

	12-03-2004 23:24									#33
	Inflate your Upload Space

No radio, does that mean Radar Towers remain, are eliminated, or require a diffferent tech?

PF

	12-03-2004 23:30									#34
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Radar Towers require Advanced Flight.

Kaos, if you indeed had a HUGE number of Arty, you would have redlined all the defenders and any extra bombardment would have destroyed population/buildings. Just because you think it used to work 'properly' in PTW doesn't mean that they should change it (especially if you are no longer playing!). There are plenty of people who like it better as it is now.

	12-03-2004 23:34									#35
	Inflate your Upload Space

I like better as it's know.

It makes you need a combines arms (to crush those red-lined defenders), not just sit and make a rubble from the city.

	12-03-2004 23:47									#36
	Suffering from ads?

Alexman,

Thanks. A easier path as we get Radio and Adv Flight together. Two techs for the price of one. No more nuisance of one tile islands. Whoopee.

PF

	12-03-2004 23:48									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by jim_steer Forbidden Palace cities no longer act as a 2nd city empire. They are still affected by distance corruption from the capital.

I don't like the sound of that one at all. Corruption is bad enough as it is, they shouldn't be trying to find way to make things worse.

quote: Secret Police HQ no longer gives effects corruption OR OCN bonus when player leaves Communism. Fixed error with Government required buildings not turning off.

This is something I've been waiting for, for a long time now.

quote: Fixed upgrade all bug (for units that do not have the upgrade ability but are part of the upgrade chain).

About time they fixed that one. It's been an issue ever since the game first came out.

quote: Corruption reducing buildings strength doubled

This is good, maybe they'll actually do something now.

quote: Radio Tech removed

Why? I don't think that was much of an issue.

quote: Implemented the "Play Last World" option.

I like this idea. Sometimes I end up with a map that I really like playing. It will be nice to have another shot at it.

quote: Implemented support for CAPS LOCK to work as the SHIFT key to skip unit movement animations (so you don't have to hold shift for the AI's turn to skip the animations).

GREAT! That should really speed things up. I'll definitely put that option to use.

Any word on when all this is supposed to be ready? I was kind of hoping we'd see more editor options though. There's still lots of room for improvement.

	12-03-2004 23:55									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Willem I don't like the sound of that one at all. Corruption is bad enough as it is, they shouldn't be trying to find way to make things worse.

Stop bashing corruption!
Besides, that readme is completely wrong. The FP works like in 1.15, which means that it affects distance corruption as in PTW, increases the OCN a lot, but does not affect city rank.

quote: This is something I've been waiting for, for a long time now.

You should have installed 1.15 then!

quote: About time they fixed that one. It's been an issue ever since the game first came out.

Again, fixed in 1.15b, as were most of the other issues you mention!

quote: This is good, maybe they'll actually do something now.

Too bad the readme is wrong about that too!

	13-03-2004 00:57									#39
	Inflate your Upload Space

Is there any updated information on when this patch will be released?

	13-03-2004 01:50									#40
	Remove this text

quote: You might also be interested to know that the MP community - ever the red-headed stepchild and small group, largely because the needs of MP were ignored - is celebrating this patch as a huge leap forward, because we finally got more than two lines of text in a patch, and actually got things we asked for instead of "OOS with bombers fixed...really...really this time...no, no REALLY!"

My apologies to the you and the MP community.

	13-03-2004 02:01									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Willem says about the new FP:

quote: I don't like the sound of that one at all. Corruption is bad enough as it is, they shouldn't be trying to find way to make things worse.

We all know the AI was abominable at placing the PtW FP. This change makes the AI a bit more competitive by making the placement a bit less exploitable/perfectable/important.

The AI needs all the help it can get on things like this.
Plus, now I don't need a sliderule and an assistant to figure out where to place my FP.

	13-03-2004 02:29									#42
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

My problem is this patch doesn't address the scenario issues, which in my opinion what C3C is mostly about. The single player options are the same as v1.15...in other words, I didn't have to wait for a patch, and I figured if I was waiting so long, there'd be even more changes from v1.15; if its true that only Jeese is working on this, then I feel sorry for him because its too much work since he's doing Civ 4 also, but because the Firaxis team works on Civ 4 they should complete Civ3...after all, Civ 3 and PTW were HORRIBLE when they were each both first released rushed and filled with untolerable amounts of bugs...

Finish Civ 3, then start Civ 4.

	13-03-2004 02:35									#43
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Relax, it seems this is just an official patch for those who refuse to install a beta patch. So given that 1.15 beta was not released so long ago, 1.20 is essentially 1.15b that went through the extra month of Firaxis' formal release cycle before becoming available to us. Beta patches can be released sooner, because they are, well, beta patches.

	13-03-2004 02:44									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The tech tree changes are one difference between 1.15b and 1.20...

Maybe someone who has some time on their hands, knows the 1.15 patch well, and is in the mood to do some work for which they will receive little award will put together a list of the changes from 1.15 to 1.20.

-Arrian

	13-03-2004 06:44									#45
	Support Apolyton

If 1.20 is to be the first public patch, the readme will probably summarize all of the beta changes at once, explaining alot of the confusion over what was posted here (keep in mind that was translated from the German site and perhaps not the final version yet). 1.18 has been circulating for a few weeks and it's changes are the missing link of what will specifically be new in 1.20. Copied from another thread, this was leaked a couple weeks ago, but at this point it seems it will clear things up more than it will confuse:

quote: quote: originally posted by tavis/jesse v1.18 Changes: * Game Rule: Enable Scientific Leaders (ON by default) * Railroads will always appear under captured cities if you have Steam Power. * Histograph keeps tracking defeated Civs * Electronics requirement removed from Motorized Transportation * Radio Tech set to No Era & Each Civ has it for free * Civil Defense switched to require Electronics * Advanced Flight now requires Electronics * Radar Towers require Advanced Flight * PBEM: Games can not be loaded in Single Player * PBEM: v1.18 Games can not be loaded on earlier versions (prevents using earlier versions to still cheat) - earlier saves can be loaded in v1.18 * PBEM: Previous players Civ can no longer be seen when loading a PBEM game * MPTournament: Map Trading moved back to Map Making * MPTournament: Enkidu cost raised to 15 * MPTournament: Ancient Cavalry defense lowered from 2 to 1 * MPTournament: Captured cities retain culture * MPTournament: Turn slices lowered from 24(base)/3(per-city)/1(per-unit) to 16/2/1 * MP: City goodie hut spawns are not possible in Elimination Mode * MPTournament: Uses 40% ocean * MPTournament: Scientific Leaders disabled * MP: Withdrawl code cleaned up * New Scientific Advisor Industrial Screen is called science_industrial_new.pcx

	14-03-2004 00:57									#46
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by alexman You should have installed 1.15 then!

I've been waiting for an official patch, which was supposed to be out a couple of weeks ago. I don't have my own internet access and I'll have to go to some internet cafe and fork over some money to download it, so I wasn't interested in these weekly beta patches. Plus I knew that the official patch would have a few features that the beta ones didn't.

	14-03-2004 01:02									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by ducki We all know the AI was abominable at placing the PtW FP. This change makes the AI a bit more competitive by making the placement a bit less exploitable/perfectable/important.

I agree, the AI was terrible at placing it. But I don't understand why that couldn't have been fixed simply by adding a subroutine that those types of buildings can only be built x number of squares from the Palace, or other corruption reducing improvements. If the FP can only be built a minimum of 15 squares away from the Palace, the AI would always use it in a way that's beneficial for it.

	14-03-2004 03:07									#48
	Inflate your Upload Space

My top priority is to get a non-beta patch out, once that's completed the next steps can be taken.

The patch is currently on lock down and will not be changing prior to its release. This means the sub bug among other things are not included. I realize many of you won't tolerate this statement, but...

* Attempts made at fixing had wave-like ill effects which resulted in worse effects or broken areas of the game

* We need to be focused on Civ IV.

During Civ III, difficulties with a suddenly changing team and old technology created substantial problems with the core architecture. My experience with it clearly shows that its a demonstration of ingenuity and skill that its in as good of shape that its in. However, that's no excuse for their being bugs and there's little to be done about it besides apologizing.

I'm not saying a new patch isn't coming, but we are at a crucial point in CIV and need to stay focused. With the lead times for testing and localizations it was best to lock down what we had so the general public could start playing with it.

Thanks for your continued support and patience.

Jesse Smith

Producer, Firaxis Games

	14-03-2004 03:22									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Thanks for posting - any hints about Civ IV/

	14-03-2004 03:26									#50
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes, thanks Jesse. It may not always appear like it, but we do appreciate the efforts of Firaxis in making Civ3 a better game (and now producing Civ4 which we're all waiting for with baited breath ).

With what other game (besides past Sid Meier games) can one say that they have received hundreds or perhaps thousands of hours of enjoyment for the measly price of $100 (original and the two expansion packs if purchased when they came out).

	14-03-2004 03:34									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Thanks for keeping the forums here up to date.

I hope the snowboarding trip went well. ;-)

	14-03-2004 03:47									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well it's hard to argue about you working hard on Civ4.

However, after several patches (and a year of vanilla)PTW had many tweaks that made Civ3 more enjoyable. We had reached a state where little else was going to change.

Now, however, the FP model has completely changed (for the better IMO) and there are new traits. I know it's only an expansion and you have other fish to fry, but the patch so far is a (limited) bug fix. Is there to be no balancing effort made for the new game? I think you have to be careful not to annoy the fanbase for Civ4 by leaving a promising expansion with too many loose ends. The sub example is just the poster child IMO.

I would also add that, whilst every sane member of the community appreciates the fact enormously that you released the beta patch, my general impression of the testing of the expansion and plans for patches after it's release are that they have been at all times haphazard. Your not being able to decide whether things are bugs or features is frustrating, and the fact that some of the larger bugs were overlooked if there was any testing at all is surprising.

Just my 2 cents.

Doc

Last edited by DrSpike on 14-03-2004 at 04:00

	14-03-2004 07:01									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Gee, it is Saturday and one 'might' think someone has dropped a 'bomb' around here somewhere close by.

Well, back to square one:

To Wit, I propose that Conquest 1.15 be summarily certified 'gold' by those who care. (My adroit apologies to the PMEB croud or the red-hair step children, for you may continue on content with 1.20 however, we have to lighten the load (modifying load) and send you out the airlock. Eh er no offense!

For now the 'future' of CIV III et al is in the hands of 'modders' and 'tinkerers'. Many thanks. We can collect and organize in the Creation Forum, where all the petty gods converge or conspire.



P.S. Those who insist that 'vanilla' is good flavor may ignore this message.

	14-03-2004 07:11									#54
	Tired of ads?

Sounds fair to me. I can handle some bugs, as long as they are documented.

I would like the reame for the offical patch to acknowledge things that are as yet unaddressed. It does not require any promise to ever address them, just notification.

	14-03-2004 07:33									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Antrine we have to lighten the load (modifying load) and send you out the airlock. Eh er no offense!

Since that thing you call an airlock looks like the front door to me, I'll just step outside and see if there's any people looking for some sport. Later...

	14-03-2004 07:44									#56
	Full PM-box? Change here!

You may end better off anyways... the Creation Forum is often a 'dead zone'.

	14-03-2004 10:56									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

hm, I certainly appreciate Jesse's efforts wrt patches, but I have to admit that I'm a bit frustrated by this official patch anyway. I expected more bug fixing, not just a replication of what already was in the 1.15b version.

on the other hand, if the sub fix wrecked other things in the game, i'm glad that it was left that way.

	14-03-2004 12:09									#58
	Increase Your PM Length

is this up on a easy to find site?

I chased for 1.12, 1.13, 1.15 (probably part a) everywhere and I am tired of doing that

Jon Miller

	14-03-2004 13:16									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No, 1.20 is not released yet

	14-03-2004 13:35									#60
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Doc Well it's hard to argue about you working hard on Civ4. However, after several patches (and a year of vanilla)PTW had many tweaks that made Civ3 more enjoyable. We had reached a state where little else was going to change. Now, however, the FP model has completely changed (for the better IMO) and there are new traits. I know it's only an expansion and you have other fish to fry, but the patch so far is a (limited) bug fix. Is there to be no balancing effort made for the new game? I think you have to be careful not to annoy the fanbase for Civ4 by leaving a promising expansion with too many loose ends. The sub example is just the poster child IMO. I would also add that, whilst every sane member of the community appreciates the fact enormously that you released the beta patch, my general impression of the testing of the expansion and plans for patches after it's release are that they have been at all times haphazard. Your not being able to decide whether things are bugs or features is frustrating, and the fact that some of the larger bugs were overlooked if there was any testing at all is surprising. Just my 2 cents. Doc

Wholeheartly agreed.