15-03-2004 06:09									#1
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Okay... some place to start discussing RR priorities. We had some discussion on this in one of the turn threads, and I think everybody agrees there (at least those that have commented). But after those first few cities, a lot is open. We can currently (710 AD) put 10 RR each turn, and this number will rise once Cyclone gets into 1-turn workerpump.

So, please discuss the following:
1. priority: Arashi. This is practically done, it only needs one RR in less then 10 turns to be able to get the ToE in 10 turns, the fastest we will need. Not really a concern anymore

2. Cyclone. Not my personal favorite (I would have preferred EotS first instead), but close, and the practical situation more or less demands its full RRing in 720 AD. 1-turn pump is nice, nobody will argue there.

3. EotS. partly in 720 AD, partly in 730 AD. Will finish completely in 740 AD for sure (that is not only the RR, but also the necessary extra mines). We need it to be sure of Hoover.

4. a path to WoC. By building a path from the desert near SS, over some tiles near SA, to WoC, we should get free movement over most of our territory. Should be finished in 750 AD, maybe even in 740 AD.

5. WoC. If we want to get something out of the IW, we need that city to grow. It will be at the expense of nearby cities, but we should max it out in both pop, and shields. As a rough guess, we can make 30 shields there, before waste. That should currently mean 20 shields after waste. Or 40 shields with the IW. It can become our first producer.

I think it is worth it to boost its population: first improve everything WoC can use, then add as many workers to the city as happyness permits. (currently to size 11, once we build the aqua). This should happen in 760 or 770, depending on completion time of the aqua. some 15 turns later, the IW is ours.

6. The previous cities were top priorities, but after that, a lot will depend on situations. Sometimes, +1spt can make a big difference in eta. I'm not perfectly sure yet, but in general, I'd like to RR those cities that are
a. close to either EotS or Arashi
b. not fully improved yet
c. are low on land tiles.

for me, Tempest is first, Hurricane comes second, and then D-ville, Tornado, Monsoon, BB, Blizzard, Typhoon, Sufa, OG, etc. Elipolis can come last, as it has little to gain, especially once WoC takes a lot of tiles from Inchon.

I propose to allways go for one city, and not start with one worker crew for each city. It doesn't really matter in terms of shield output, but would make planning a lot easier. Of course, as much as possible, workers should not RR alone, but always in crews of 3, to be as efficient as possible.

Oh, and if not really needing the tiles (like e.g. in WoC), hills and mountains come after all the rest is done. They take longer to complete for the gain: 2 irr plains or grass can become 1 RR irr + 1 mined RR plains in 9 worker turns, gaining 2 spt. 2 hills need 12 workerturns for the same effect. 2 mountains even need 18. exceptions on case by case basis, of course.

Any comments on this?

DeepO

	17-03-2004 05:35									#2
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The question that jumps out at me:

How does the RR plan help us win?

An uncertain subject, to be sure.

My gut reaction is that you are right about concentrating Workers on our big producers first, sequentially, but then perhaps spreading them out to help all of the lesser cities/towns concurrently... more flexible?

	17-03-2004 06:41									#3
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The main help we are looking for is to speed up the key wonders.

After those cities, I would think we should consider railing the perimeter. This will allow us to free up those blockers and allow us to mass defend any spot.

I would then worry about what tiles should have priority. At least that is my normal approach.

	17-03-2004 06:59									#4
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 This will allow us to free up those blockers...

How so?

	17-03-2004 22:06									#5
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It should no longer be required to have every tile covered by units, once rails are on coastal tiles. We should be able to free up those that cannot be reached in one turn.

They can't send attacks to all tiles at once, so we should be able to send units to cover as we spot the ships. It won't free up all the units, but we should be able to spare quite a few.

	18-03-2004 06:45									#6
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True. Three naval pickets can then do the jobs of 9 or 12 land units in quiet sectors.

Just be careful how it is done.

	18-03-2004 19:57									#7
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Speaking of which, how many ships do we have left? We should probably think about getting them into position to act as pickets, and we need to decide whether or not we are going to build more ships. Ironclads? Or wait for Destroyers?

-Arrian

	19-03-2004 23:48									#8
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As long as nobody has marines, our best defenses remain to be our sea wall. I fully admit we have to start building our navy. We currently have 2 galleys, and 3 galleons IIRC, and that's it. I would wait for destroyers though, as it would coincide nicely with factories getting up everywhere. We don't need any navy now, but will need it in 30 turns time.

DeepO

	20-03-2004 00:52									#9
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Once we finish with our attempt at Hoover via ToE, I think it will be in our best interests to slow down the tech pace.

We will need time (and possibly money) to produce a modern navy. Our shield production, especially in many of our coastal cities, is quite low. We can tweak that with our workers and WF shuffling, but not by all that much.

What is it that allows destroyers, again? Refining? Anyway, not only do we need to build the ships, but we will also need to build additional pikemen and catapults (and get rid of the knights and WC's) for upgrade to infantry and artillery.

Pike -> Inf = 120 gold each
Cat -> Artillery = same, I think.

That be a whole lot of gold.

Therefore, I suggest that we should - nay, NEED, to take our foot off the gas after ToE. We will need a huge sum of money for upgrades, and our production-starved empire needs time to a) build factories*; b) build more units. Lots more.

* - yes, we need industrialization. My hope is that we can trade AT for Ind.

-Arrian

	20-03-2004 01:08									#10
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destroyers come with Combustion, Arrian. But you're very right that we would be best of to not race ahead in tech too much. The only real exception I see is Industrialisation: the faster we get that, the better. And if others are not going to research it in time, I would go full speed for it. There is no point in waiting for 20 turns before GoW finally researchs it, if we can get it in 4-5 turns. Especially not if we see Lego getting it, we can't let them get to Marines before we can.

DeepO

	20-03-2004 01:20									#11
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Agreed there.

-Arrian

	20-03-2004 01:29									#12
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True we need industry quickly.

	20-03-2004 03:17									#13
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okay, let's get somewhat back to the original topic (please, keep discussing the other things, I don't want to threadjack a threadjacked thread ): plans for RRing in the coming turns.

We currently at the end of 720 AD. We've done Arashi (which might need one more hill RRed), Cyclone, and part of EotS. We've got 32 workers. So next turns:

730 AD
34 workers
EotS:
- 5 mines at the 4 furs and EotS11. 15 WT (worker turns).
- 6 RRs at 4, 41, 1, 11, 3, 33. 18 WT.
That leaves EotS at 38 or 39 spt (before waste, so distract 2 shields), and either at no, or -1fpt. I don't understand, I was calculating with 33 spt, not 36 spt. Oh well, too bad We still can use the tiles, as our prebuilds will not end before acquiring ToE (I'm still counting on that)
- last worker starts on SS87


740 AD
35 workers
- 1 worker left from last turn. 1 more ends SS87.
- 12 workers for SA 21, 2, 7, 78
- 15 workers for WoC 23, 2, 1, 4, 21
- 6 workers mine WoC 2, 21.
- last worker starts on WoC 77.
Estimated eta for aqua: 760 AD (could be 770 AD, I'm not sure. If we can't gain enough shields to get 1 turn off, we should not mine, but only get the extra food instead)

750 AD
As WoC doesn't gain from extra shields, this turn (only next turn), focus on Tempest in this turn.
37 workers.
- 1 leftover on WoC 77, add 1 to complete.
- 21 workers for Tempest 6, 62, 63, 69, 32, 7, 74
- 3 workers to mine Tempest 23
- 9 workers for OG 36, 3, 8.
- 2 workers for BB 8 (am I correct in thinking one of them will use its movement next turn, the other finishes without ending its movement?)

760 AD
Either all workers (39) go to WoC if it has completed its aqua, to fully improve it and adding 5 of them to the city (it can support size 11 before a marketplace), or everybody goes to Bolderberg, Hurricane or Tornado to improve those cities, and return to WoC one turn later.

BTW: WoC should probably build its IW before starting on a market for maximum efficiency in terms of shields. Commerce is something else, of course. IW and then market will be build some 3 turns faster then market and then IW. And if all goes well, we should be able to build a factory before a market, to even further speed things up.

DeepO

	20-03-2004 05:35									#14
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It is often wise to start the IW asap, that way if the iron was to deplete, we still can finish it. As long as the town is strong enough to do it in a reasonable time frame.
I won't do it with one of those 90 turn build towns.

	20-03-2004 05:51									#15
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I thought that if you ever were able to build the IW in a town, it won't disappear if either iron or coal moves? This might change things, we still need 4 or 5 turns on the aqua before we can start on IW. Currently, we can get to 18 spt before waste (with RR), meaning some ~12 spt after waste. At size 11, that is likely to rise to ~20 spt after waste.

we have 60 shields in our aqua.

So either we build IW now, and switch from the aqua, meaning we end in roughly 20 turns without aqua, or we wait 4 or 5 turns and end at size 11 in 20 turns. (it might be one turn off, this estimate). The difference is that we have to add 5 workers, but gain an aqua, and the commerce those 5 extra citizens provide.

DeepO

	20-03-2004 06:26									#16
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What about rushing the aquaduct?

	20-03-2004 09:07									#17
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Yes if you start the build it will be allowed if either depletes. If it was already being built it is good regardless.

I was only pointing out that if you wait long enough and lost one, you could not build it.

	20-03-2004 13:43									#18
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Theseus, sadly we don't have any funds to rush the aqua...

vmxa1: I understood what you said, but I must have made myself not very clear: I thought that if the IW would be possible in a city (like WoC now), and before starting on it one source depletes, you still could start and build IW.

That's a difference... if it is the way you say, I would be more inclined to start on it immediately, and not risk losing it, not even if it is only a small chance on those 4 or 5 turns.

I just thought of an alternative, BTW. We don't have any funds to rush the aqua, but we do have loads of workers.... we will need 12 to gain 10 shields from an instant forest chop. Especially in those places where we need to change from irrigation to mines this is very useful, as there we would only need 10 workers. I'm inclined to spend workers on chopping if it can bring the eta for IW one turn down, even if that means our RRs are delayed by 3 or 4 tiles.

DeepO

	20-03-2004 21:59									#19
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Does RP have any funds to contribute?

	20-03-2004 23:20									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO That's a difference... if it is the way you say, I would be more inclined to start on it immediately, and not risk losing it, not even if it is only a small chance on those 4 or 5 turns. I just thought of an alternative, BTW. We don't have any funds to rush the aqua, but we do have loads of workers.... we will need 12 to gain 10 shields from an instant forest chop. Especially in those places where we need to change from irrigation to mines this is very useful, as there we would only need 10 workers. I'm inclined to spend workers on chopping if it can bring the eta for IW one turn down, even if that means our RRs are delayed by 3 or 4 tiles. DeepO

Anybody know if it does work that way? I am not sure if we need to go that far, but at least want to have IW be after aqua and not delayed farther.

	21-03-2004 05:10									#21
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I'm pretty sure that if you can EVER build the IW, you still can if the iron depletes... but not 100% sure.

	21-03-2004 05:18									#22
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I think I saw it mentioned last in one of the AU games, but that can easily be half a year ago. I've got the same feeling: pretty sure, but not 100%.

So, main question is if we are going to accept the risk of depletion in the 4 or 5 turns we need, coupled with the risk of not remembering it right

I say we go for the aqua first. I'll check next turn, and if we can speed it by a forest chop, let's do that... It would gain us 1 turn on the IW compared to switch to it now.

Theseus, maybe RP has some cash left (either that, or they are using it for their own rushes, they should be making something of a 60 gpt, and are only giving 30 of those to us), but I'd rather not risk anything with our cash reserve before we're sure of the ToE. And for that purpose, I consider RP's treasury part of our own Once we know how Medicine is going to be acquired we can use money, but by that time it won't be useful anymore.

DeepO

	22-03-2004 02:34									#23
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Still working on this, but I'll have to edit it later on, my computer is crashing. I hope I can end the save, without having to replay it.

Changes in RR plans:

740 AD
35 workers
- 1 worker left from last turn. 1 more ends Hurricane 1.
- 12 workers for SA 21, 2, 7, 78
- 15 workers for WoC 23, 2, 1, 4, 21



- 6 workers mine WoC 2, 21.
- last worker starts on WoC 77.
Estimated eta for aqua: 760 AD (could be 770 AD, I'm not sure. If we can't gain enough shields to get 1 turn off, we should not mine, but only get the extra food instead)

750 AD
As WoC doesn't gain from extra shields, this turn (only next turn), focus on Tempest in this turn.
37 workers.
- 1 leftover on WoC 77, add 1 to complete.
- 21 workers for Tempest 6, 62, 63, 69, 32, 7, 74
- 3 workers to mine Tempest 23
- 9 workers for OG 36, 3, 8.
- 2 workers for BB 8 (am I correct in thinking one of them will use its movement next turn, the other finishes without ending its movement?)


DeepO [/QUOTE]

	27-03-2004 18:39									#24
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One question remains open, so any help would be appreciated:

If you start with two workers on a 3-workerturn task (e.g. RR a grass), will both workers start the next turn with the task completed and no movement points left, or only one of the two?


760 AD
38 workers
- 4 of which are added to WoC. 34 workers left.
- RR on WoC 4, 47, 41, 33. Workerturns: 22 (including the two workers left over from last turn)
- mine on WoC47. 3 workers.
this leads to WoC at size 11, producing 32 shields before waste. That should give some 22 shields after waste. IW in 14 turns. (might be a little off, as I don't know the exact corruption levels)
- 3 RRs at Tempest 6, 63, 33. 9 workers

770 AD
36 workers
- RR on Arashi 1. 5 workers.
- RR on Tempest 69, 23, 74. 9 workers
- mine on Tempest 69, 74. 6 workers
- RR on SS1. 3 workers (this means SS can move off the plain, and onto a mountain
- RR on Monsoon 9 (incense hill can move to mountain, hill can be given to WW) 3 workers
- RR on Hurricane 2, 21. 6 workers
- mine at Hurricane21.
- last worker starts on Hurricane 21.

780AD
37 workers
- plans are to improve Hurricane further
- then move onto D-ville
- Then Bolderberg and Tornado.
- maybe we should add one worker to Monsoon, and one to OG Both of them can generate 5 gpt or bpt, that is an extra 10 gpt in the treasury, at the expense of losing shields in late RRing.

790 AD
39 workers
- further improvement of Tornado
- start on SA, OG and WW.

800 AD
40 workers
- improvement of WW and OG if not finished yet, move on to Blizzard, Sufa, Inchoff

810 AD
42 workers
- improve Sufa, Inchoff, Typhoon. also Elipolis (but that will probably take another turn)

820 AD
43 workers
if my estimate are not off, this will conclude all RRing of flat land. Next are hills, especially in the Tempest area.

830 AD and onwards
hills and mountains.

After that, complete the forts along our coast, add workers to all cities that can use them, and use the remainder for forester crews. we have another 800 shields or so we can use by foresting-deforesting all our land. In the mean time we can send a RR crew to help RP.

Hopefully, around the time we start on the hills, we have RP for the shorter improvement times. It won't help us a lot in our flat land RRing, though, as that will be done allready.

DeepO

	27-03-2004 20:07									#25
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IIRC one worker should have moves left.

	27-03-2004 20:20									#26
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Thanks vmxa1. Do you know by any chance if the shield such a RR generates is counted already in the turn it finishes? I doubt it, but in case that's true, I can MM workers a bit more for extra shields...

DeepO