25-04-2000 08:00									#1
	Why the ban on freedom of discussion in Apolyton? Suffering from ads?

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font> Wezil is upset that you will not allow public discussion of what is and is not to be posted on the Apolyton OT. He made no direct mention of the thread's topic; you made that reference yourself.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Someone in Ming's Wezil thread said. Don't remember who exactly... but he brings up a good point. It's bulls_h_i_t that the moderators have to be dictators about things such as freedom of speech in an off topic forum, but more than that, they won't allow for open discussion on it. It has to be all secretive through e mail and everything. How many times have we heard Mark, Dan, or Ming lip service us about how "this is not appropriate for public discussion and if you bring it up again in a thread you'll get a 'vacation'." Of course that's heavily para-phrased but you all get the idea. What's the big deal on bringing something out in the open, hmm? Sure the pigs always have the right to do what they wish to their sheep as long as they've got their dogs around, but there's no justification to it.

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That's what you get for pretending the danger's not real.

	25-04-2000 08:11									#2
	Suffering from ads?

Maybe open discussion just isn't the best way to resolve this sort of thing. I don't think the point of email is secrecy and keeping stuff hidden, as much as it is keeping outside stuff from coming in. Can we (all of us together) actually have an intelligent debate on this matter without just constantly repeating ourselves and essentially getting nowhere? I think everyone is going to have a different opinion on what is and is not "acceptable", and naturally, everyone cannot be accomodated. So it is left up to the moderators to make the decision. But it's not like they have prevented anyone from voicing their views; they have left everyone the option of emailing them to work it out one-on-one. I think the possibility of discussing such a inflammatory topic is not really up to the moderators, but up to the conduct of everyone participating in it. Ming, for example, seems to close threads on this subject not necessarily because of their subject, but because of their tone (or because of their prominence). Maybe what you propose could be worked out if everyone stopped taking the whole situation less seriously and more rationally.

	25-04-2000 08:20									#3
	Remove this text

maestrobto... Again, this is a private site, where the owners can set the rules, just like you set the rules in your home.

In this specific instances, there are some extreme circumstances involved that were better discussed in private.

MarkG and DanQ have always allowed discussion on any given subject when they
thought it was appropriate to do it in public. Granted, it is their opinion what is appropriate... but since they own the site...

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

	25-04-2000 08:28									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

SHUT THE **** UP ALL OF YOU!

Moan, moan, moan....

'The forums too unruly' 'We should have a moderator'

At first and then

'The moderators act like dictators' 'Our free speech is being curtailed'

Well why don't you jump up and down or go and read the FAQ.

And I quote :

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>We were a bit reluctant to say it in this past, but this a privately owned forum, not a public square. It is our right to accept or not accept certain kind of discussion or certain kind of users. We will be seting the rules and enforce them as we see fit. We believe in freedom of speech, but again, this is not a public square(there are laws that apply to public squares too, but that's another issue ). We hope that you understand our position.

<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Essentaily it's supposed to be a forum for just relaxed chating, not any of this moaning and whinging ( sp )

I have no power here so I can't tell you to stop making these threads but I can impolitely suggest it because the perpetual whining is giving me some kind of electronically induced head ache.

How I wish I was everyone else.

I could have HOURS of fun bashing my heads off walls.

	25-04-2000 08:29									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

( the complaint about whineing isn't to you BTW Ming. You posted while I was writing mine. C'est la vie. )

	25-04-2000 09:25									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Maestrobto,

That someone would be me (and Wezil, but he is on 'vacation'). Our point is starting to make its way through, but there is still a long way to go. Before we get sidetracked by those who simply enjoy being rabble rousers, I would like to make some things perfectly clear.

1. Wezil was not objecting to the fact that he had a thread deleted (well, he did object but not publically). The owners had their reason for removing the thread, and they are responsible for this forum and its contents. The handling of the situation was a tad sloppy, but I digress...

2. Wezil tried to open several threads to discuss the issue of what is and is not allowable material for the ACS OT forum. Attempting to inject more interesting threads for the intelligent posters here of necessity means approaching the line where someone will be offended.

Why should I worry that my finely crafted post will be arbitrarily (sp?) whisked away, when I broke no policy statement and meant no offense? A meaningful and OPEN debate seems to be a logical response for someone hoping to improve the forums. Apparently, he was wrong...

3. Wezil was told not to make any posts or threads concerning the offending topic upon pain of banishment. He was extremely careful to avoid mentioning said topic, and merely tried to open debate on what is and is not allowed. I know he did, I read them.

For that, and that alone, he was put on vacation.

The owners and administrators of this forum would prefer that you take up such discussions through email so that you can be ignored in a more personal manner. Having recently exchanged emails with Markos, I can attest to the process.

Polite, prompt, and about as productive as watching paint dry. I would love to post some of the more obtuse and contradictory parts of those emails, but I doubt Markos would want me sharing what he intended to be a private conversation.

So there you have it. I hope that your thread meets with better success than Wezil's did, otherwise it is off to Mingapulco with you.



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Free Wezil!
Free the D**d Threads!!

	25-04-2000 09:28									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

for the record moron, you dont have free speech if you are on/in private protperty. The moderators have the right to ban anyone they damn well please. Its the same reason scouts dont allow homosexuals,becasue it is a private org.

Hey ming, can you ban anyone that brings this up again, based on ignorance.

	25-04-2000 09:38									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Why are you hiding behind a DL?

Coward.

	25-04-2000 10:32									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

*yawn*

Glad to see you meeting your monthly quota of complaining about the Moderators, maesterbator.

broken record...broken record...broken record...

PLAY SOMETHING ELSE MAESTERBATOR!!!

	25-04-2000 11:36									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If I can into your home and started urinating on your carpet and using profanity, do you think I would have the right to complain if you kicked me out?

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"I like to eat puppies and babies."
~Kathy Lee Gifford

"Everywhere are gymnasia, fountains, gateways, temples, factories, schools... and the world which from the beginning has been laboring in illness has now been put in the way of health. Cities are radiant in their splendor and their grace, and the whole earth is as trim as a garden!"
Aelius Aristides, 2nd Century A.D. (from the Caesar 2 manual)

	25-04-2000 12:02									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

moving to the apolyton forum

	25-04-2000 12:13									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by maestrobto on 04-24-2000 11:00 PM</font>
Someone in Ming's Wezil thread said. Don't remember who exactly... but he brings up a good point. It's bulls_h_i_t that the moderators have to be dictators about things such as freedom of speech in an off topic forum, but more than that, they won't allow for open discussion on it. It has to be all secretive through e mail and everything. How many times have we heard Mark, Dan, or Ming lip service us about how "this is not appropriate for public discussion and if you bring it up again in a thread you'll get a 'vacation'." Of course that's heavily para-phrased but you all get the idea. What's the big deal on bringing something out in the open, hmm? Sure the pigs always have the right to do what they wish to their sheep as long as they've got their dogs around, but there's no justification to it.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>I think you're misinformed. Wezil was asked twice over mail to not make a certain discussion in the OT due to some special circumstances which were explained to him.
If disagreed he would make a thread about it, no? Instead he started implying things on various threads. He was then told to stop, something which he ignored.

In general of course there is no big deal in discussing something in the open. But in some specific and extreme cases, some discussions might hurt someone.

	25-04-2000 12:26									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Omni Rex Draconis on 04-25-2000 12:25 AM</font>
1. Wezil was not objecting to the fact that he had a thread deleted (well, he did object but not publically).
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>certainly not to the two mails sent to him...

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>2. Wezil tried to open several threads to discuss the issue of what is and is not allowable material for the ACS OT forum.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>he opened a thread on the general issue with implications on his specific case. he just continued something that he first asked and then wanred not to do.
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<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>He was extremely careful to avoid mentioning said topic, and merely tried to open debate on what is and is not allowed. I know he did, I read them.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>the implication was clear regarding the rest of his dicussion on various threads with moderators or other posters
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>The owners and administrators of this forum would prefer that you take up such discussions through email so that you can be ignored in a more personal manner.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>My announcement was obviously only refering to this specific case. The Apolyton forum has always been open for any discussion on policies. This very thread proves it
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<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Having recently exchanged emails with Markos, I can attest to the process.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>the fact that I replied to you mail(which was a reply to a mail of my own not an orignal mail) means that I ignored you?
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Polite, prompt, and about as productive as watching paint dry.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>if by productive means that the other will immediately accept your opinion, yes it is that productive
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</font>I would love to post some of the more obtuse and contradictory parts of those emails,
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>I'm still trying to keep a certain discussion of not being mentioned too much for a while, something I thought you said that you understand
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>but I doubt Markos would want me sharing what he intended to be a private conversation
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>all personal mail is private discussion, isn't it?

	25-04-2000 16:16									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Freedom of speech should only apply to people that use their brains before they speech.

People really mix up freedom of speech with freedom of insulting voicing your own sick opinion and spam.

Freedom of speech means that you can voice your opinion on sencefull matters as long as your opinion doesn't harm anybody or anybodies opinion. Further do you MUST carry responsibility for what you say.

Freedom of Speech is something that's one of the American Gods. but fortunately ACS is in Greece and Canada.

We live in a society where everybodies knows his or her right by heart but nobody takes responsibilities for his or her responsibilities.

Now get the hell out of here with your freedom of speech crap plz.

CyberShy