17-03-2004 06:54									#1
	When should/will CGN start self razing? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Arnelos> Togas - you know... here's an idea... let's say CGN gave us their workers... let's say that we gave CGN a city on our continent... let's say that we gave CGN their workers back... they then have a bunch of industrious workers on our continent which can even be traded for native population points if desired. Since buying workers from the AI to create pop points is a valid strategy, this isn't even exploitive beyond standard SP game practice. Aidun> And how much could they damage GWT with 30 muskets? Aidun> if GWT's army would be destroyed, then its worth throwing in as much as possible Aidun> reasonably Sharpe> we have to be realistic though - GWT certainly has a lot of reinforcements coming Aidun> how much? Arnelos> the problem with a musket-based strategy is that muskets are *defensive* units... only terribly useful if CGN turtles Aidun> and how much do they outproduce CGN? Arnelos> what would be perhaps more useful is for CGN to cut iron, build horses, and use the loan for knight upgrades Arnelos> though TIMING is an issue there Togas> we could definately give them their workers back if they got a city here Togas> and trading for workers is perfecly legit, IMO Sharpe> plus with turtling against such a large force , they would have to group a lot of their muskets together to damage GWT sufficently - meanwhile GWT's fast ansars could then pick on weaker targets MasterZen> yes it is Arnelos> Togas - yes, which to them would be NATIVE workers MasterZen> but watch as Lucky will cry foul :P Aidun> but with every attack the knights fall from their horses before they have gripped their swords. How much did they lose at agincourt? 13. Aidun> I'm very gloomy for knight strategies Arnelos> Aidun - knights are mobile... the problem CGN has right now is too much ground to defend Arnelos> if they defend one city, GWT merely trashes another Sharpe> any idea how long it would take us to get Mil Trad if CGN gave us GP? Aidun> too long Togas> QUESTION: miccofl is proposing that we give 600g, they give 30gpt. He says they have the economy to cover it Arnelos> AWESOME Sharpe> hmm, for now they do , until they lose more cities Aidun> you have a point Aidun> They would better keep the 30gpt as well Arnelos> Sharpe - if we get ANY of our money back... that's incredible Sharpe> Togas, has miccofl given any indication of their losses at Agincourt and their current status Togas> not yet Aidun> that's 1 musket for each 2 turns Arnelos> question is... do we really want them paying us back when the money should be spent on upgrading more units? Aidun> that's my point Togas> that's what troubles me Sharpe> my worry is that realistically - CGN won't have enough units to damage GWT's army - how many muskets do you need to sufficiently damage say 30 attacking ansars? Aidun> Couldn't you arrange that when it's really hopeless, they gif everything valuable to us, but they don't pay 30 gpt MasterZen> at least 20 :P Aidun> *gift Sharpe> plus there is the speed of the ansars versus the slowness of the muskets - CGN will likely be forced to choose which areas to concentrate their musket force and abandon the rest Arnelos> Sharpe - precisely the problem Aidun> and strategy is not their strongest side MasterZen> lol Sharpe> it would almost be a good idea for them to switch back to despotism and poprush units - reduce the likelihood of GWT taking cities with much population while getting some worth out of their population Arnelos> especially if they're going to be VOTING IN QUICK POLLS to decide which cities to save and which to sacrifice Togas> question: Should I bring up "lifeboat" right now? Togas> offer to give them a city on our continent? Arnelos> hmm... Arnelos> MZ? MasterZen> nah Arnelos> ok, that was my thought as well MasterZen> might sound like we have already assumed they're dead Arnelos> that can wait Sharpe> probably too early for a lifeboat Aidun> Arn, perhaps Trip can be the doctor beside their deathbed, maybe they have a chance of survival Togas> let's wait Aidun> But eh Sharpe, that despotism strategy is a good one Sharpe> if they were religious it might be , but they can't afford anarchy now Aidun> Right Aidun> I still have some black spots in my view on this game MasterZen> well, finally got Office installed MasterZen> time to run outlook... Aidun> Now hope is doesn'y crash Arnelos> Aidun/Sharpe - despotism would be problematic... several turns of anarchy and they cannot get all of that enormous income for upgrades... however, they *could* cut iron, poprush horses, reconnect iron, and massupgrade with our loan... problem is, it would probably take too long. Sharpe> make sure you have the patches for outlook MZ Aidun> Arn, Trip proposed that SEVERTAL turns ago, now it's too late for cutting iron I think MasterZen> there are patches?? Arnelos> point is... poprushing KNIGHTS is unrealistic... too expensive Sharpe> true Aidun> right Arnelos> might as well keep their Republic INCOME for musket upgrades Sharpe> I was thinking of it more in terms of we don't want GWT capturing even medium size cities Sharpe> I suspect any cities they capture may go to their GCA lackey Arnelos> that's another thing to consider... Sharpe> and GCA may pull a palace jump down to the south to reduce the corruption Aidun> At least I think CGN should consider the tactic of the 'burned ground' or how do you call that? Arnelos> Sharpe - damn good point Arnelos> hmm... Aidun> abandoning cities I mean Arnelos> damnit... we need a frank discussion with CGN, but we have to worry about whether CGN is ready for it Arnelos> Sharpe> burned ground - only if they see ansars coming - otherwise premature burning will reduce the number of targets and allow GWT to concentrate their forces more Arnelos> Sharpe - you don't always SEE the Ansars before they come... Sharpe> yeah, that's the problem with Ansars Aidun> Sharpe, true, but when GWT has to concentrate, CHN has to do that too Arnelos> if city radius is only 2 Aidun> Amd I remember still how long Pamplona could be held Sharpe> from what we know about CGN's tactics, we can probably assume that most of their cities have lots of culture re temples and libraries Arnelos> Sharpe - while true, GWT's culture is pretty damn impressive Aidun> but books and incense don't help you win a war Aidun> they are useless Sharpe> oh I wasn't talking about culture wars - I was talking about LOS if cities start fallign Sharpe> falling Arnelos> yes, I know. Point is... GWT's culture is strong enough to help with stopping that Arnelos> we need to start a thread on this Aidun> and include the entire log in it Arnelos> sure Aidun> volunteers? Arnelos> the issue of CGN's military strategy... self razing or not Arnelos> I'll do it Arnelos> it's my job Sharpe> for culture recaptures - yeah - GWT is too strong in culture - but culture is also a weapon for viewing and for slowing down their ansars even briefly Arnelos> though I have to do the turnchat as well Aidun> that'll be a busy evening then. but that's what we have you consuls for Togas> arnie, you need any help with the turnchat? Sharpe> do we know if CGN is doing any "forest" defenses around their vital cities yet? Arnelos> anyone who will be here and wants to comment is welcome Arnelos> I'll start that in a bit Togas> we oughta write up some ideas and send them to CGN by way of Trip Togas> ideas re:defense Arnelos> yes Aidun> Forest defences? Arnelos> that's what I want the team to discuss... what I'm posting about

	17-03-2004 06:55									#2
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Here's THE BIG ISSUE:

Is there any hope of CGN's survival on their continent? If not, ideally should CGN engage in strategies with the eye toward the long-term such as razing cities before GWT/GCA can take them or other such measures? Should they pump out as many workers as they can and gift them to Apolyton for use on our continent? Should they turtle all of their military forces in one highly defensible city or two and force GWT to attempt to dislodge them? Can that city threaten other neighboring cities with a mobile KNIGHT force (that they would have to build) enough to make things difficult for any GCA/GWT plan to develop the south?

Conversely, if CGN can survive, razing cities now might be disastrous if they can get them back. Furthermore, if CGN does become convinced in their own eventual demise, are they the type of team to work at attempting to help another team (Apolyton) and do what is necessary or will the dramatic loss of morale cause them to simply give up on everything?

There are a lot of connected issues to this that need to be addressed.

Frankly, we need to have a far more candid discussion with CGN than we are currently having. GWT/GCA is going to have a rather substantial long-term strategic edge on us if we continue to allow our alliance to skirt the long-term issues in favor of the short-term ones and thus fail to have CGN plan ahead for them. Of course, some of that may be unavoidable, since CGN may not react very well to the idea that Apolyton does not believe they can survive (etc, etc, etc.).

So we find ourselves torn. The longer we wait to start having a candid discussion with CGN about what REALLY needs to happen if they're going to get killed anyhow, the more damage the current false assumptions are going to do to our long-term interests. Then again, short-changing CGN if they have any chance at continued survival may be an absolutely enormous strategic error on our part.

From my own perspective, I'll say that CGN's situation is rather similar to Roleplay Team's situation in the PTWDG. As I thought about my own team the moment I realized that RP Team was going to get hit by both ND and GoW, they are also doomed. I remember immediately working to convince my team of our doomed situation before even the first unit died and that our entire focus as a team needed to change... our chance of competing for victory in the game was over and we needed a different goal for being in the game. Continuting to operate within the mental framework of trying to win the game for ourselves or simply to work on behalf of our own interests alone was no longer going to be relevant and doing so would merely come back to bite us and our allies later. Our focus needed to change to how we could still potentially impact the game in the long-run, not how we could help ourselves.

By the time RP Team was actually losing units and cities, much of that transformation had already taken place (over the dead bodies of a few members who wanted nothing to do with it, of course).

It is apparent that GCA behaved in a very similar fashion, though they apparently went a step further and apparently cheated.

My greatest fear is that CGN may not behave in the same way. What happens if CGN refuses (actually as RP Team did as well...) to raze their own cities? What if GCA gets all of these cities and palace jumps down to CGN lands? This would give GCA quite a powerful base from which to aid GWT and give them the eventual advantage in this game.

What if CGN decides to simply fight to the last man rather than to accept a place on our continent, as many on RP Team wanted to do? The polls that CGN has been holding about whether the team should simply resign from the game are not an encouraging sign.

What we need to determine is whether CGN can survive at all on their own continent first. Following that, we need to determine when we should start the very candid discussion with them about strategy that NEEDS to happen. We also need to determine what we should advise them to do in that candid discussion. The aid of both those who think they know what the optimal Apolyton/CGN strategy would be and from those who think they know what CGN would be willing to stomach would be highly welcomed.

We need to really hash this issue out here, prepare our answers and then implement our strategy for this.

So discuss away.

	17-03-2004 07:21									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

At least I have the question if CGN, IF it can ever survive this war on their own continent, is not still doomed for the rest of the game. Wont any victory be a Phyrric victory?

I think that a way to make CGN not throw everything away in the end is to add a clause to an eventual loan agreement that CGN will from nowon do whatever is needed to support Apolyton.
If they become aware of their doom, they are at least tied to helping, whether they like that or not.

I personally think that CGN cannot, even if they manage to defeat the attack force of GWT, ever ecover any lost cities and should therefore use the "burned ground" strategy: disbanding all unneeded cities for the defense and retreating the units to one or a few cities (preferably harbor cities) that can be defended properly and easily. Nearly everyone knows how long Pamplona could be held by the RP team and how much troops it costed to finally conquer it.

I myself have recently played a game against the AI in which I had become backward by never ending wars. Finally I was attacked by an army of 20 cavalry units and all I had was Medieval Infantry and Numidian Mercenaries. Sill I managed to keep the city for another 10 turns in which I managed to kill of most of the cavalry. Secret: much tebuchets and having the city built on a hill. CGN has much better units, so maybe this strategy could work.

Aidun

	17-03-2004 07:35									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well, the gold has been send, HURRAY, but too late to add any clauses.

Still I urge Togas or Con to make them help us when they loose "although we believe that they wont". In that fashion. Mentally preparing CGN will indeed be needed as Arnelos suggests, but diplomacy should in my view be primarily focussed on 'How do we get as much out of GCN as possible when they loose'.

Now that we have sent 600 gold, CGN will surely not forget this and they will be in our favor whatever happens. now we still have to make them gift anything valuable away when it becomes really hopeless.

Aidun

	17-03-2004 08:45									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

i told Furloaf last weekend, that if all went bad we would have a nice cozy corner for them on our continent, so the stage has been set.

It is in the posted turnchat.

	17-03-2004 09:23									#6
	Tired of ads?

The war has many battles yet to be fought. GWT is out of their GA now.

	17-03-2004 09:36									#7
	Support Apolyton

New Chat with CGN posted in FA.

It was mainly a pep talk.

But I did bring up turtling and an evac to our continent IF things didn't go well.

(Notice the capitol/bold "IF" BF )

Thanks again for helping in there BF it is appreciated

	17-03-2004 11:26									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think CGN is basically cooked, Gold from us or not. We're hoping that this is not true because that would benefit us, but it's time to face facts.

Even if CGN days are numbered, we cannot expect them to do everything we tell them to do. We can continue to advise them, but ultimately it's up to them to embark upon a scorched earth campaign, or give us all their Workers, or whatever. I hope we do not get angry at them for playing their own game, even if it means a slightly less advantageous position for us.


Dominae

	17-03-2004 17:44									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I think CGN is most likely toast. It is VERY clear they did not really take the GWT threat seriously, whereas GWT put everything they had (or just about) into their military, which can now chew up CGN city by city. Ansars are really hard to stop without a chokepoint, which CGN has now lost.

In order to advise CGN what *we* think is best, we really need an updated screenshot of their empire (full view) and a screenshot of the Agincourt area, and CGN's full order of battle and troop placements. That's the ideal amount of info. But even just a screenshot of their empire from our last save would help. We can look at the situation and ponder whether or not they might have some success holing up in certain cities.

Dom's right in that we cannot expect them to just follow our instructions. Similar to the relationship between the Gathering Storm and Roleplay in ptwdg, they are not ours to command. They're their own team, and we must be careful to respect that, even if we think we know best.

-Arrian

	17-03-2004 18:30									#10
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Well, they are getting 600 of our hard earned cash, we should get something from it...

E_T

	17-03-2004 18:59									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Arrian and Dom, you are right, but maybe Trip can help a bit, he has advised before. you are but right that you can only advise and not anything more.

Aidun

	17-03-2004 19:47									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I agree with Arrian that the best thing we can do for CGN now is to take full part in their defensive planning, requiring them to provide us with complete map and troop information.

Looking at this cynically, our 600 Gold is more likely not to get wasted if we have double the number of minds making sure it's put to good use.

Now: will they agree to it?


Dominae

	17-03-2004 20:36									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dominae I think CGN is basically cooked, Gold from us or not. We're hoping that this is not true because that would benefit us, but it's time to face facts. Even if CGN days are numbered, we cannot expect them to do everything we tell them to do. We can continue to advise them, but ultimately it's up to them to embark upon a scorched earth campaign, or give us all their Workers, or whatever. I hope we do not get angry at them for playing their own game, even if it means a slightly less advantageous position for us. Dominae

Good point

But we have faced facts, the reason I said IF to them is because I dont think its our place to tell them they are basically screwed.

And I brought up the Turtle and Evac so they will start thinking about it. And SL3 and miccofl were receptive.

But you are right Dom it is ultimately up to them on what they decide to do, all we can do is try and point them in the "right" direction.