18-03-2004 09:10									#61
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo It's also a load of bull.

Other than counter attacking, Bush I see no refutation of the charges with factual info.

	18-03-2004 09:12									#62
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Berz how about this as an option,

Instead of the 2000-3000 minimum we instead consider a weighted voting system.

You pay $200 in taxes you get 200 votes. You pay $20000 you get 20000 votes.

	18-03-2004 09:15									#63
	Re: Why Government Grows Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Allowing only people who pay a minimum of $2000 - $3000 in income taxes every year to vote.

Probably unconstitutional - it's basically a poll tax.

Plus it's utterly stupid - they could model the taxes so that only they would EVER get to vote.

	18-03-2004 10:16									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman The first thing the wealthy people would vote for would be a return to one person, one vote.

I doubt that.

	18-03-2004 10:37									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Umm...that's kind of the point, the people spending it don't view it as other people's property and that's why they are so profligate. So the answer is to allow the rightful owners of that money to set the tax rate thru voting.

There's no rightful owner. Or rather, the rightful owner of all tax money is the government.

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker You want to support a drug war, pay for it with your own money. I often hear people who oppose abortion decry having to pay for them and I agree.

So abortions have absolutely no medical purpose at all?

	18-03-2004 10:39									#66
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The rightful owner of the tax money are the citizens, not the government. The government owns nothing. It just manages our collective property.

	18-03-2004 10:40									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Point is at this point in time the citizenry own it but allow a broken representative governement to steward it. Berz wants to redefine that ownership to those who actually pay and/or fix the problem with our stewards.

That means some people are more equal than others, because they have more say in things.

	18-03-2004 10:41									#68
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quote: The rightful owner of the tax money are the citizens, not the government. The government owns nothing. It just manages our collective property.

Suuuuure .

	18-03-2004 10:43									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That means some people are more equal than others, because they have more say in things.

Yes

	18-03-2004 10:43									#70
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The rightful owner of the tax money are the citizens, not the government. The government owns nothing. It just manages our collective property.

I don't think that's right. If the citizens own the money, why can't somebody say, "Hm, I want my money back now?" Since that is not allowed to happen, I will have to say that the government (or rather, the country) owns the money.

	18-03-2004 10:45									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Yes

I see that Libertarians are against democracy. TheBen is right, they should be called Libertyrants.

	18-03-2004 10:49									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That means some people are more equal than others, because they have more say in things.

This differs in what way from today. Do you actually think people have an equal say today?

	18-03-2004 22:59									#73
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Libertarians don't give a crap about anything, but thier property. It's shamefull.

	18-03-2004 23:06									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I don't think that's right. If the citizens own the money, why can't somebody say, "Hm, I want my money back now?"

Because we own it collectiely, not individually. My taxes belong to everyone, just as much as their taxes belong to me. Since it belongs to all of us, we have to decide together (through our government) what to do with it.

Realistically, as our government is beholden to the powerful, most of us don't have a lot of say, but potentially we do.

	18-03-2004 23:07									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe This differs in what way from today. Do you actually think people have an equal say today?

No sense in codifying it.

	18-03-2004 23:29									#76
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My previous point exactly about communism.

	18-03-2004 23:31									#77
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quote: I see that Libertarians are against democracy. TheBen is right, they should be called Libertyrants.

yea, ideally, there wouldnt be any voting required by citizens. all what youd need is a government which enforces your natural rights, and thats it. unfortunately, government needs some kind of funding, and a way to make sure that corrupt people dont get into power forever. and then ofcourse, how would you choose who gets the power.

	18-03-2004 23:47									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia yea, ideally, there wouldnt be any voting required by citizens. all what youd need is a government which enforces your natural rights, and thats it. unfortunately, government needs some kind of funding, and a way to make sure that corrupt people dont get into power forever. and then ofcourse, how would you choose who gets the power.

+

Ummm.. There are more problems with it than that. One of the worst is what makes the govt opperate in the people's interest, or do you even care about that?

	19-03-2004 00:07									#79
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Communists don't give a crap about anything, but stealing property. It's shameful.

	19-03-2004 00:20									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Communists don't give a crap about anything, but stealing property. It's shameful.

Nice try, but that's just a BFA. There's no evidence of that on this thread.

	19-03-2004 00:23									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia what youd need is a government which enforces your natural rights, and thats it.

Problem is, there's no such thing as natural rights.

	19-03-2004 00:29									#82
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Problem is, there's no such thing as natural rights.

If you go that route, there is no such thing as equality and no need to distribute wealth equally.

	19-03-2004 00:30									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Nice try, but that's just a BFA. There's no evidence of that on this thread.

Your right this isn't a commie thread, but my troll worked.

	19-03-2004 00:32									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Your right this isn't a commie thread, but my troll worked.

You should ask yourself why you have to troll like that to get the focus off of your evil ideology.

	19-03-2004 00:36									#85
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You obviously mistake my posts as serious. I haven't written anything serious in the last few days.

I've been hopelessly frivolous the last few days.

Carry on.

	19-03-2004 00:43									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe If you go that route, there is no such thing as equality and no need to distribute wealth equally.

Equality, like the concept of right, is a human creation. It only exists because we created it. Thus, it is not natural.

	19-03-2004 00:55									#87
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So by default your saying both systems are flawed by initial premise?

	19-03-2004 01:01									#88
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Of course they are.

I would also note that you are juxtiposing equality and right. Communism does not do away with right, merely changes and extends it.

	19-03-2004 01:04									#89
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Some would say warp and mutate, but you can go with change and extend if that helps you sleep at night.

	19-03-2004 01:05									#90
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I doubt that.

Assuming that they'd not care about poor people they didn't know, they'd still want the vote for their children going through university, their husband/wife, their slightly less wealthy friends, their retired parents etc. This proposal even falls apart on the grounds of simple nepotism.