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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh
I suppose it depends on the individual, but generally they do not chase everything that moves. They find someone attractive and date them for a while, then split up and might date someone of a different gender. They are not (usually) some sort of sex crazed demons who need to have sex with both sexes at once! |
So do you chase every female that moves? Are you a sex crazed demon that needs to have sex with females constantly?
Or perhaps, once upon a time, you found someone attractive and dated them for a while. Then, after you broke up, you dated someone else. When you were dating someone, did you all of a sudden never find another female attractive at all, but as soon as you broke up, you magically could find other people attractive?
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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Crosspost.
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Starchild
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a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Go talk to starchild. Genes do not determine behaviour.
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You know what I found today? Twas reading through a science news site and found this delightful article about a study done by the University of Chicago showing a link between brain metabolism and sexuality.
http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releas...ctivation.shtml
To summarise:
The research team theorized that hypothalamic differences may reflect biological differences between men with strong sexual orientation differences. In order to determine whether such differences might exist, they gave the men doses of Prozac, a drug that selectively inhibits the reuptake of serotonin in the brain. At another time point, the researchers also administered a placebo to the men. Neither the researchers nor the subjects were aware of which substance they were given.
They were tested 90 minutes after having received the drug or the placebo. The subjects were also administered radioactive glucose, which provides a marker for a Positron Emission Tomography (PET) brain scan to determine where in the brain the drug acted to inhibit the reuptake of serotonin. The heterosexual men had a much stronger response in the hypothalamus to the Prozac than did the homosexual men, a finding that suggested that men with strong sexual preferences have differences in the ways in which the neurotransmitter serotonin works in their brains.
“The remarkably strong association seen in this study between hypothalamic physiology and sexual orientation underlines the promise of functional brain imaging for elucidating the neuroanatomy and neurophysiology underlying human sexual behavior and functioning,” said Heino F. L. Meyer-Bahlburg, professor of clinical psychology at Columbia University.
And I found this one interesting as it deals not with humans but with sheep, showing that homosexuality is not only rooted in biology but found in animals as well as people.
http://www.ohsu.edu/news/2004/030504sheep.html
PORTLAND, Ore. - Researchers in the Oregon Health & Science University School of Medicine have confirmed that a male sheep's preference for same-sex partners has biological underpinnings.
A study published in the February issue of the journal Endocrinology demonstrates that not only are certain groups of cells different between genders in a part of the sheep brain controlling sexual behavior, but brain anatomy and hormone production may determine whether adult rams prefer other rams over ewes.
"This particular study, along with others, strongly suggests that sexual preference is biologically determined in animals, and possibly in humans," said the study's lead author, Charles E. Roselli, Ph.D., professor of physiology and pharmacology in the OHSU School of Medicine. "The hope is that the study of these brain differences will provide clues to the processes involved in the development of heterosexual, as well as homosexual behavior."
The results lend credence to previous studies in humans that described anatomical differences between the brains of heterosexual men and homosexual men, as well as sexually unique versions of the same cluster of brain cells in males and females.
"Same-sex attraction is widespread across many different species." said Roselli, whose laboratory collaborated with the Department of Animal Sciences at Oregon State University and the USDA Agricultural Research Service's U.S. Sheep Experiment Station in Dubois, Idaho.
Kay Larkin, Ph.D., an OHSU electron microscopist who performed laboratory analysis for the study, said scientists now have a marker that points to whether a ram may prefer other rams over ewes.
"There's a difference in the brain that is correlated with sexual partner preference rather than gender of the animal you're looking at," she said.
About 8 percent of domestic rams display preferences for other males as sexual partners. Scientists don't believe it's related to dominance or flock hierarchy; rather their typical motor pattern for intercourse is merely directed at rams instead of ewes.
"They're one of the few species that have been systematically studied, so we're able to do very careful and controlled experiments on sheep," Roselli said. "We used rams that had consistently shown exclusive sexual preference for other rams when they were given a choice between rams and ewes."
The study examined 27 adult, 4-year-old sheep of mixed Western breeds reared at the U.S. Sheep Experiment Station. They included eight male sheep exhibiting a female mate preference - female-oriented rams - nine male-oriented rams and 10 ewes.
OHSU researchers discovered an irregularly shaped, densely packed cluster of nerve cells in the hypothalamus of the sheep brain, which they named the ovine sexually dimorphic nucleus or oSDN because it is a different size in rams than in ewes. The hypothalamus is the part of the brain that regulates sex hormone secretion, blood pressure, body temperature, water balance, and food intake, while it also plays a role in regulating complex behaviors, such as sexual behavior.
The oSDN in rams that preferred females was "significantly" larger and contained more neurons than in male-oriented rams and ewes. In addition, the oSDN of the female-oriented rams expressed higher levels of aromatase, a substance that converts testosterone to estradiol so that the androgen hormone can facilitate typical male sexual behaviors. Aromatase expression was no different between male-oriented rams and ewes.
The study was the first to demonstrate an association between natural variations in sexual partner preferences and brain structure in nonhuman animals.
The Endocrinology study is part of a five-year, OHSU-led effort funded through 2008 by the National Center for Research Resources, a component of the National Institutes of Health. Scientists will work to further characterize the rams' behavior and study when during development these differences arise. "We do have some evidence that the nucleus is sexually dimorphic in late gestation," Roselli said.
They would also like to know whether sexual preferences can be altered by manipulating the prenatal hormone environment, for instance by using drugs to prevent the actions of androgen in the fetal sheep brain.
In collaboration with geneticists at UCLA, Roselli has begun to study possible differences in gene expression between brains of male-oriented and female-oriented rams.
And wherever you look, more correlations between genes, biology, and sexuality pop up. Left-handedness, womb hormone levels, finger length, inner ear structure. Genes don't determine behaviour? There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Ben, than dreamt of by your philosophy.
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Rogan Josh
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Oh lord, how could you miss the point here so obviously? The study was relating to actions, and when you have 95% of those studied still engaging in homosexual acts, that shows the "therapy" to be a failure.
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The point was whether or not it is possible to switch from being gay to straight. Clearly it is.
quote:
Those who don't commit acts say their sexual urges don't go away, they just supress them. Can you cite any studies of people being "cured" of their sexual orientation? Could you be converted to being attracted to men sexually over women if you tried hard enough?
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Do they now? Do you have a source, or is this all insubstantiated rumour?
And yes, I think if I were in the 'right' environment for long enough and tried hard enough, I could be sexually attracted to men over women. Are you now going to tell me that you know me better than I know myself?
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh
The point was whether or not it is possible to switch from being gay to straight. Clearly it is. |
 Good thing you went into physics rather than psychology. Again, the study was based on actions, not thoughts, and 95% relapsed, action-wise, into homosexual behavior. What does that tell you about the effectiveness of attempting to change sexual orientation?
Given the biological components of it as mentioned by Starchild, can you devise a logical means whereby therapy would alter an inate trait?
Regardless of all of this, I may have been mistaken about the study:
quote:
The researchers have not yet found any "cures" as a result of reparative therapy. Two male subjects initially reported that they had been cured, but later admitted that they had simply chosen to be celibate; their sexual orientation was unchanged.
Shidlo said: "If it were changeable, I think we would have seen it by now. There's been so much effort expended on it -- so many tears, so many dollars, so much energy, so many promises -- that it would have happened to someone. And if there is such a person out there, I'd love to talk to them...They tell me in retrospect, it was a sham. They were fooling themselves, or they were fooling others or both."
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quote:
Do they now? Do you have a source, or is this all insubstantiated rumour? |
Two outside psychiatrists were allowed to interview members of Exodus International in 1978. Of the ministry's 800 members at the time, 30 were selected by the ministry staff as having changed from exclusively homosexual to exclusively heterosexual in orientation. The researchers interviewed the 30 and determined that only 11 had really been largely "cured" of their homosexual behavior; they had remained celibate. Eight of the 11 continued to have a homosexual or bisexual orientation; they still reported homosexual dreams, fantasies and/or impulses. However, they have chosen to be celibate. If the rate of success is defined as the percentage of clients with a homosexual orientation who became heterosexual, then this survey found a less than 0.4% success rate.
Now, considering the "success" rate of the therapy, of those 3 remaining folks, which do you think is most likely:
A) they weren't really cured of their urges, but maintained they were because that's what they want to believe.
B) They maybe had not been homosexual in the first place, but confused about their own orientation at the time they began the therapy and were really heterosexual to begin with.
C) They were somehow "cured" through therapy of something that is shown to have significant biological components?
Also:
quote:
Two of the 11 should not be counted among their successes. They were Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, who were among the many founders of Exodus in 1976. They fell in love and were united in a commitment ceremony after the above study was completed. As shown in the documentary movie One Nation Under God they later criticized their own organization and other ministries for gays as fraudulent. They said that the Exodus program was "ineffective...not one person was healed." They stated that the programs tend to increase guilt and a sense of personal failure among those who are trying to "sexually re-orient" themselves through reparative therapy. Many had suicidal ideation after they failed. |
quote:
And yes, I think if I were in the 'right' environment for long enough and tried hard enough, I could be sexually attracted to men over women. Are you now going to tell me that you know me better than I know myself? |
No, I'm going to tell you that mental health officials and people who have actually underwent such therapy know better than you do, since you haven't even attempted it. Lots of people think that if they tried hard enough, they can read minds, fly or such. Do I need to be inside their heads to know better? 
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Uh-oh, that's 4 gay posters on the same page. This undoubtedly must be the cabal of gay fascists who beat down all opposition that RJ once referred to...  |
My Chanel handbag for men leapt to your defence, along with my battery of Wildean quips.
Attack one homo, you attack us all, Vive la France, Egalite, Fraternite, Homosexualite!
Must calm down- have to go and perform stereotypical homosexual activity- listen to show tunes, watch a Judy Garland film, become head of the F.B.I. , or a British High Court judge.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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Damn near all of this is irrelevent.
Ben & Rogan:
Ask yourselves - truely think about it, please - why you oppose gay marriage.
I have, at times in the past, found myself realizing, mid-argument, that my reasoning was something I'd constructed to back up a position I had that was rooted in emotion - or to define it better, BELIEF. I believed something... I felt something, but hadn't really examined why. I'd then gotten into a debate about it, and been forced to defend my position... which resulted in what I think you guys are doing: pulling out any argument you can think of, regardless of its soundness, and throwing it into the breach. The alternative, of course, is to admit that your position is based on belief, not logic. This you have thus far refused to do, which I think is simply denial.
I do not find any of the arguments presented against gay marriage (or, to clarify - whatever the straights get form the state, the gays get from the state. Whatever it's called, it's the same for all) thus far persuasive. Some of them are downright comical:
- HIV/AIDS. Please anybody can transmit HIV. The higher transmission rate of anal sex is irrelevent to this discussion, given that it is but one form of gay sex, and it is a form that lesbians do not practice (at least not w/o a strapon ) and one that straights do (not all, but some). Further, banning gay marriage does next to nothing to stop gay sex.
"Benifit to society" of hetero marriage - this argument (if you can call it that) boils down to "kids are good." But, as has been repeatedly pointed out, many straight couples do not have kids, for one reason or another. Any other benifit from marriage would work for gays as well as straights - people tend to do well in stable, happy relationships.
"Conversion" - This one is all about "OH MY GOD, IF WE LET THE FAGS MARRY, EVERYONE WILL TURN GAY!!! Maybe even my kid :scary: " To which I respond "no, I'm quite secure in my heterosexuality... never in a million years could I find another man attractive." Letting gays marry will not increase the rate of homosexuality. It will most likely increase the rate of OPEN homosexuality, but that's not a problem for me. Oh, what was the other argument... was it that allowing them to marry "sanctions that lifestyle?" To which I respond: fine by me. If your holy book tells you otherwise, that's your problem.
-Arrian
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:34
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Here is a paragraph or two from another article by Excerpted from Psychology 7th edition by David G. Myers, copyright 2004 by Worth Publishers, New York:
What does it feel like to be homosexual in a heterosexual culture? If you are heterosexual, one way to understand is to imagine how you would feel if you were ostracized or fired for openly admitting or displaying your feelings toward someone of the other sex; if you overheard people making crude jokes about heterosexual people; if most movies, TV shows, and advertisements portrayed (or implied) homosexuality; and if your family members were pleading with you to change your heterosexual life-style and to enter into a homosexual marriage.
Facing such reactions, homosexual people often struggle with their sexual orientation. They may at first try to ignore or deny their desires, hoping they will go away. But they don't. Then they may try to change, through psychotherapy, willpower, or prayer. Personal values affect sexual orientation less than they affect other forms of sexual behavior. Compared with people who rarely attend church, for example, those who attend regularly are one-third as likely to have cohabited before marriage and to report having had many fewer sexual partners. But (if male) they are just as likely to be homosexual (Smith, 1998).
But the feelings typically persist, as do those of heterosexual people—who are similarly incapable of becoming homosexual (Haldeman, 1994, 2002). Most of today's psychologists therefore view sexual orientation as neither willfully chosen nor willfully changed. Sexual orientation in some ways is like handedness: Most people are one way, some the other. A very few are truly ambidextrous. Regardless, the way one is endures.
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