24-03-2004 22:24									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi One can be homosexual without being arrested. I don't see why we ought to endorse the behaviour through marriage.

And why not? simply because you think it's a sin?

Again... how about some real reasons besides your own personal opinion. You haven't come up with any yet..

	24-03-2004 22:27									#212
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I'm not talking legally; as I said before, I think civil marriage is a daft idea to begin with. I am just delivering personal advice, that if they haven't listened to you the first thirty times you said it, they aren't going to listen on the thirty-first. Especially as you haven't given any valid arguments I can find. AIDS is marginally more widespread among gays, yes, but that is due to the fact that, I think, it started in the gay community. It's not like being gay spreads it faster or something. If you're promiscuously gay, then you're especially vulnerable, but if you're promiscuous and straight the only difference in odds would be caused by the aforementioned greater prevalence among gays.

Black people have a higher risk of heart disease than whites. Interracial marriage therefore increases the percentage of the population that is likely to have a coronary. That doesn't mean it should be forbidden by law, does it?

Even better example: alcohol. If there weren't any alcohol, the country would be much safer. Unfortunately, prohibition has been shown to be unenforceable, and alcohol is in fact beneficial in small quantities. There's a certain point at which you have to let the big boys decide what's good for them on their own.

	24-03-2004 22:41									#213
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i think that oregon county has it right. since so few heterosexuals seem to be able to actually honor marriage, and we of course don't want to kick an institution while it's down, it only makes sense to take it away entirely and put it into a "lockbox" until people can actually respect it once again.

time out, i suppose. maybe for a period of fifty years.

	24-03-2004 22:51									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Again, we already have this Elok. One can be homosexual without being arrested. I don't see why we ought to endorse the behaviour through marriage.

Please refresh your memory on the topic of this thread, which is very much about legal prohibitions against homosexuals, which you've defended.

	24-03-2004 23:22									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Again... how about some real reasons besides your own personal opinion. You haven't come up with any yet..

Since you are the one wanting to change things, shouldn't it be you who comes up with a real reason?

	24-03-2004 23:31									#216
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quote: A typically sloppy use of language by someone with an all too obvious agenda.

Fair enough. Why should I expect someone to read my posts for what they say, and not for the strawmen they wish to knock down?

quote: Homosexuality does not 'cause' or lead to 'easier transmission of 'AIDS'.

The two do not equate with each other. You saying so, does not make it so. All I said is that it is easier, through gay sex to contract AIDS.

quote: I know people who have been gay and celibate- how easily will they transmit H.I.V. ? Via brainwave activity perhaps, or through homosexual pheromones....

I have no problem with gay folks who choose to abstain. I believe that to be an honourable course that ought to be encouraged.

Glad to see that you are touting the health benefits of abstinence.

quote: Unprotected penetrative sex, whether heterosexual or between gay men, will tend to increase the possibility of infection with H.I.V., if the parties have been exposed to the virus at some point in their sexual history.

Of course, but that neglects the real point at hand.

quote: Of course it doesn't, but you'll probably say that female homosexuality is 'different' from male homosexuality or some such other feeble get out.

Why should they be the same? You folks admit differences yourselves between the relationships, and distinguish between lesbians and gays.

I suggest you familiarise yourself with your own literature.

quote: Is there a difference between H.I.V. and A.I.D.S. ? Why, so there is.

That's also the same view held by the folks in Africa that reject treatment for AIDS.

	24-03-2004 23:40									#217
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quote: So what... the simple fact is that AIDs is not restricted to homosexuals, so to base your argument of public safety on it doesn't work.

Higher incidence argues against you here Ming. Ignoring the point won't make it go away.

quote: And this has what to do with the topic?

Alternative explanation for why we see a higher incidence of AIDS among gay men, then for any other group, beyond promiscuity.

quote: I don't find any compelling argument against it.

So you have no compelling reason to endorse gay marriage. Glad to hear that Ming.

quote: Drugs are illegal and have been proven to have a negative effect. There is no NEGATIVE effect of homosexuality beyond being a sin for some religions.

Are you taking into account my earlier argument about a higher incidence of AIDS and other stds? I would think that has a larger factor.

quote: In circles again... I have stated that there is NO compelling public interest reason to not allow it. Your ONLY compelling public interest is a lame aids argument and the fact you personally think it's wrong.

Thank you.

Though you refuse to state, it is clear that IF I can show you that homosexuality causes harms to the participants similar to those of drug abuse, then I would have shown a compelling public interest.

quote: I have many gay friends, and it sickens me that they get treated like they do.

How are they maligned?

quote: It's their lives... and they deserve the same happiness any other couple has. And I will fight for their right to have it. If there is a god... and he/she feels it's wrong or a sin... he can judge. It's not my place to judge... and neither is it yours.

Outside the church yes, I agree with you here. However, I am trying to steer the argument away from religion even as you bring Catholic priests in the debate.

	24-03-2004 23:42									#218
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quote: which is very much about legal prohibitions against homosexuals, which you've defended.

No I haven't.

You are buying into the argument that just because one can show a compelling public interests, means we ought to have a ban.

I've been trying to draw this point out since my first post in the thread, that there may be some very good reasons why not.

Oddly, no one can seem to find this point.

	24-03-2004 23:46									#219
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quote: Especially as you haven't given any valid arguments I can find.

On which point?

Why it would be a compelling public interest to protect homosexuals from injuring themselves?

or

Why one ought not to endorse gay marriage?

I think I've given points for both.

	24-03-2004 23:47									#220
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I hate you.

	24-03-2004 23:48									#221
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quote: Drug use is not a victimless crime. Drug users commit all kinds of crimes, especially against members of their own families.

But not all of them do so.

Why should those who can't handle their liquor be forced to abide by the same regulations as those who can?

	24-03-2004 23:58									#222
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I'm sure religion has caused much more harm to society than homosexuality ever has.

	25-03-2004 00:06									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Since you are the one wanting to change things, shouldn't it be you who comes up with a real reason?

sigh... I've stated my reasons repeatedly. For the record, it is simple discrimination not to allow homosexuals to be legally married. The opposing point of view has been based on aids... and that it will distroy marriage... neither point which is valid.

Homosexuals couples need the same protection of he law as heterosexual couples. There is no valid reason to deny them of this legal protection. To deny them this is just discrimination which is illegal under the laws of the land. Interacial marriages were considered illegal in the past, and that changed as people woke up realized how wrong it was for it to be illegal. The same situation exists now for homosexuals. It's time to treat them equally in the eyes of the law.

	25-03-2004 00:12									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Outside the church yes, I agree with you here. However, I am trying to steer the argument away from religion even as you bring Catholic priests in the debate.

Thank you... if you don't want to bring religion into, then don't. Then you agree that the State should be allowed to marry gay couples... as long as churches don't have to.

Then it doesn't effect you in any way, and everybody gets what they want. Thank you for finally agreeing that the state should be allowed to perform marriages.

And I will stop mentioning priests when you stop mentioning drug use. Neither have ANYTHING to do with this discussion.
Fair?

	25-03-2004 00:15									#225
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The burden of providing a reason for a change is certainly on those who want to make a change.

The trouble, young jedi, is that those of us in favor of gay marriage have repeatedly stated our reasons for it, in other threads, and you have read those reasons. I know, because I've seen you reply to them.

Yet you are stooping to things like this:

quote: So you have no compelling reason to endorse gay marriage. Glad to hear that Ming.

You're grasping at straws.

-Arrian

	25-03-2004 00:16									#226
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quote: And I will stop mentioning priests when you stop mentioning drug use. Neither have ANYTHING to do with this discussion. Fair?

	25-03-2004 00:20									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi On which point? Why it would be a compelling public interest to protect homosexuals from injuring themselves? or Why one ought not to endorse gay marriage? I think I've given points for both.

No... you haven't. Please explain how not allowing gay marriages is a compelling public interest to protect homosexuals from injuring themselves. Again, AIDS knows no sexual preference. You argument that it is has a higher incidence amoung gays means nothing to this argument. It may mean that it is in the public interest to promote safe sex amoung homosexuals at a higher rate than heterosexual couples... but doesn't mean anything else.

And as to why one ought not to endorse gay marriages, you have offered up nothing but aids and public interest. both of which you can't support.

So again... why should it be illegal besides just your religious beliefs... because if that's all it is... let the state do their thing, and your religion can do what it wants... and everybody is treated fairly.

	25-03-2004 00:22									#228
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Ben needs an eel up the poopshoot.

	25-03-2004 00:23									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The two do not equate with each other. You saying so, does not make it so. All I said is that it is easier, through gay sex to contract AIDS.

It's not easier to contract HIV/AIDS through gay sex anymore than it is through straight sex.

	25-03-2004 00:28									#230
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun It's not easier to contract HIV/AIDS through gay sex anymore than it is through straight sex.

Anal sex has a substantially greater risk associated with transmission of HIV, but both groups engage in anal sex, though gay males are more likely to do so. Lesbians, however, have a much lower chance of contracting HIV.

The biggest risk fact in gettng HIV these days, however, is being Black. Ain't got nothing to do with being gay or straight.

	25-03-2004 00:31									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The trouble, young jedi, is that those of us in favor of gay marriage have repeatedly stated our reasons for it, in other threads, and you have read those reasons. I know, because I've seen you reply to them.

Hey! I'm "young jedi"

(well... once I change my name back)

	25-03-2004 00:38									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Hey! I'm "young jedi" (well... once I change my name back)

Dude, you're the one who went for the silly name change. Not my fault.

And Obi-Wan was once a young jedi (I was thinking of the atrocious "new" Star Wars films when I was posting, for some reason).

-Arrian

	25-03-2004 01:00									#233
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Interesting.

One of the reasons for my nick, with my old avatar, is in the sense that I am the old in the young.

So while I am a young jedi, I feel quite old.

Will be back later.

	25-03-2004 01:01									#234
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Time for his metamucil, no doubt.

	25-03-2004 01:02									#235
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Ok, true, when I normally think of Obi-Wan Kenobi, I think of Alec Guiness from the original.

Maybe it's the use of "Ben" instead of Obi-Wan? I dunno.

-Arrian

	25-03-2004 01:27									#236
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I wont repeat myself too much:

Homosexuality is NOT harmful for general society and I do not know of any serious evidence, conceptual or canonical that opposes my view.

IF it was, I would still allow it because I am not a utilitarian, and believe in the individuals right to subjectively decide how to run their own lives, and furthermore, consequentialism shows ultimately that all is generally good. What makes a doctrine against homosexuality better than one that includes it? The problem is that our society is based upon the former doctrine, yet it is evolving, so we are left with a conflict of concepts here. I dare say that the weight of evidence is pro-homosexuality. Which is good for my libedo!

	25-03-2004 01:28									#237
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As for the issue of sex, I dealt with that on the abstinence pledges thread.

	25-03-2004 01:30									#238
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quote: One of the reasons for my nick, with my old avatar, is in the sense that I am the old in the young. So while I am a young jedi, I feel quite old.

Only the good die young

I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, the sinners are much more fun

Billy Joel - smart man. Got old, can't sing anymore, very sad.

-Arrian

	25-03-2004 03:05									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Ming For the record, it is simple discrimination not to allow homosexuals to be legally married.

Why? Why is it discrimination? Two best friends who are hetrosexual do not have the rights of a married couple - why do they need to be sleeping together to get them?

If you object to the concept of marriage, that is fair enough. I would be quite happy if we got rid of the tax breaks etc. But that is not what you are saying.

	25-03-2004 03:07									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Why? Why is it discrimination? Two best friends who are hetrosexual do not have the rights of a married couple - why do they need to be sleeping together to get them?

Cuz they aren't trying to make a family.