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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:34
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CH, the idea was to keep Lego from getting Medicine (in 5 turns), not to break NDAs. Of course, normal 20 turn NDAs would apply in all cases.
And GoW has implied they want some of our free techs, by offering them electricity, I want to avoid they trade Medicine to Lego for electricity, and afterwards ask for AT from us for keeping the no-trade clause with Lego. That tech is nearly twice as costly.
I'm still holding the save, and will keep on doing so for a couple more hours. If anybody wants to send these, or similar messages, please do so. ND I can easily attach with the save, but I haven't been in touch with GoW before, so I'd rather leave that to Sleepy, if he's still ambassador. Or Arrian, as he had last contact.
DeepO
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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MZ says 2 turns more on medicine if they get gold from ND.
We're 3 turns from electricity, right? That would be PERFECT. We gift Steam power to GoW on T190. They discover med on T190, and gift it to us. We discover Elect on T191, and immediately begin on SM.
The potential problem here is that they're still looking for our ToE techs "for free." Then again, reading MZ's PM, it's not really for free, because he talks about researching other industrial tech and giving us that.
So I fired off a response with some more brainstorming.
Basically, I'm thinking we trade Elect for Ind, S.M. for Sanitation, Atomic Theory for Replaceable Parts, and Electronics for a tech to be named later (refining? steel?).
AFAIK, those are pretty uneven trades. The other issue, of course, is how we are going to handle ND. I'm betting ND thinks they can fund GoW or GS research and get all sorts of goodies out of the deal. If GoW researches Industrialization with ND help, does the trade for Electricity mean that both GoW *and* ND get Electricity, and we get Ind? Hrm. At the VERY least, we ought to be able to pass on whatever we get from them to Roleplay (at a later date, to keep Lego's costs up).
Do you like my ideas? Too much? Too little? Let me know. MZ also seems to think there is a chat for thursday. Is that something we do now as a matter of course? If so, who will be there?
Finally, we still need to come up with a response to Vox for Nationalism. They want luxuries and gold. We won't have gold to give until we get S.M. After that, we can certainly afford to pull up and go max tax for a few turns. What do you guys think is a reasonable gold amount to couple with 20 turns of our luxuries? 1000 gold? More? Less? I've really no idea.
I actually don't know the beaker cost of Nationalism, but I'm guessing somewhere around 3000. Let's say that each luxury is worth ~40gpt to Vox. Over 20 turns, that's 800 gold. We have 2 to trade them, right? So that's 1600 gold. Of course, I'm pulling those numbers straight out of my... um... imagination.  Anyone have a better idea?
-Arrian
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
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kick ass!
I just hope us ramping the tech race doesn't end our game faster, if you know what I mean....
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:34
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Arrian, you can find a table with the industrial tech costs for this game in the topped Smith's thread... thanks to Cort.
Further, it looks like you have the same idea as I have, which is great. I have to open the save, but we even can end Elec next turn, if RP has given us the 40 gold (we'll need 30 or so). But we'll be broke then, so either get SM in 5 turns, or wait one turn for hording cash and get it in 4.
The main difference between our ideas is that I would give GoW one free tech (electricity), and for good order ND as well. The others, we sell. They don't have to whine that's unfair, they deliver us 2400 beakers with 2 teams, while we give them 2880+3360. That's still a ratio of 1:5.2 . Not fair in any way, which should be enough (less then this might not work). But, of course, we will afterwards gain 2 techs for 600 shields.
Also, they use the point that Hoover is worth a lot to us, which is not really correct. Hoover is not that great for us, it would do them, or Lego a lot more good. We spend 800 shields on it, which could also be 5(?) power plants. We will only gain 2 or 3 powerplants as the other cities won't have factories for a long time, and thus don't benefit from Hoover.
For any other team, the effect would be a lot bigger, as they have more productive cities. Not for us. So them helping us to Hoover is a moot point, the thing that is really going on is that they deny Hoover to Lego, who would otherwise surely get it. Which is far more dangerous...
One thing I kind of read in you message that I didn't rellay like is that you told them we don't need their help for getting SM in 4 turns. Well, that is true, but it is very close (we will burn 230 gold), and it doesn't give them any incentive to pay us for our techs. If they would be willing to fork over 1000 gold, I'm sure the negotiations would become a lot more pleasant.
I'd like to be in that chat with them, and I would love to have some kind of plan what they are going to get from us. For the moment, we run forward, and assume Med is coming in 3 turns, perfectly in time for us (if they sponsor our research, we could use it one turn faster)
The main point I like is that it sounds like we have found an ally against Lego in GoW, although I'm not sure on the intentions of ND.
To be continued, now I'll play the turn. I'm in time need tonight... first the turn out the door, then go back to give some more opinions on this.
DeepO
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
The main difference between our ideas is that I would give GoW one free tech (electricity), and for good order ND as well. The others, we sell. They don't have to whine that's unfair, they deliver us 2400 beakers with 2 teams, while we give them 2880+3360. That's still a ratio of 1:5.2 . Not fair in any way, which should be enough (less then this might not work). But, of course, we will afterwards gain 2 techs for 600 shields. |
Given Vox's latest communication, I'm all for using Electricity as the tech we "gift" away. Electricity to ND & GoW in exchange for "helping" us get ToE, fine. Electricity to Vox in exchange for Nationalism and Demo. If we have to throw in a luxury, fine.
Then we get back to roughly even deals. 
quote:
Oh, just noticed: we will need 3 turns for Elec, after this one (so 192). |
Well, they say 2 turns until the get Med... so it could be T191, but it could be T192... dunno. Either way, it's good for us. As long as it's not T193.
Regarding timing... you say 5 turns for SM. That means T197 we discover it. Is that the expected completion date for ToE? If so, great, no need to speed research. If, however, we can finish ToE on T196, then perhaps we should try to work out a deal for cash from GoW/ND for another one of our techs - like Atomic Theory - and get some of the money up-front.
Of course, I could just go check the Smith's thread for that info, huh?
* Arrian goes off to check out the Smith's thread and refresh his memory.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:34
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nobody knows, Krill.
As to Medicine: we currently are certain to get ToE, even if we don't get Med from GoW, with two exceptions:
- GoW doesn't sell it to Lego instead of to us (or ND, but that's unlikely)
- or, and this has not been mentioned yet, Lego doesn't steal the tech from us once they discover Steam. They will probably have saved quite a bit of cash already, enough to steal tech if they so desire.
Please, don't anyone mention this last thing to any other team, we should not give them any ideas. Rumours can go fast in this game, and Lego stealing tech to catch up would be disastrous.
DeepO
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21-03-2004 23:20
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