20-03-2004 16:18									#1
	Corruption in ISDG different from stock PTW? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

E_T asked me to start this thread by posting the following quote of his post on the subject in the tech thread:

quote: Originally posted by E_T Now, as for sim testing, first off, I was saving this for a different thread, but I need to say this now, if we are to get relitively accurate Sims Modeled out (by whoever does the simming). This game's Corruption Model has been altered from Standard PBEM amounts. This is still a rough guestimate, but sofar, show true to the actual facts. Our current game is Modded in one (or a combo of them all) of the 3 following manners: 1) Percentage of Optimal Citys in the Regent difficulty is decreased from 90% (default) to 85%. 2) Number of Optimal Citys (in the Standard size Map) has been decreased from 16 to 15 3) Percentage of Corruption in the Regent difficulty has been increased from 100% to 105% All of my calculations sofar shows that we are about 105% of corruption for what we should have, based on mapsize, difficulty and traits. Both SP and PBEM sims to date show this difference, but has been too small to try to quantify it (up until now). I was working on creating a new Sim, to test these 3 different possibilities and then figure which is the best fit for what we actually experiance. I'm thinking that this was not intentional, but a BIX setting that Mongoose had that he was playing with and accidentally added it to this game. But the fact remains, that any sim that is created to help with further game analysis, needs to have it's corruption model changed, so that the sim reflects the actual game as closely as possible. I am currently leaning towards the 85% NOPT figure as the best fit, but that is with some very limited testing and time. I need help with getting some information, specific numbers to either show that this is a very good idea, and that we should persue it OR that it's just a whim and that we should go a different path. I ask that we have as many team members who are good at simming, to help with this, because I just don;t have the time to do it. MoI E_T

	20-03-2004 16:26									#2
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As for what discussion has taken place on the subject, here is a quick summary:

* E_T is convinced that corruption in the ISDG is indeed different from stock PTW and other PBEMs in which he has tested corruption. For this to be the case, either the scenario file must include altered rules or, less likely, a save file was edited (somehow) along the way and the corruption values were altered in the process.

* E_T and I first pretty much agreed that the most likely reason was an inadvertant error by Mongoose. I'm not entirely sure how, but Mongoose is not the type of guy that we would suspect of purposely tweaking corruption values in the editor before starting a game like this.

* For Togas' part, he suggests that we should ask Mongoose about it the next time we see him in chat.

* I brought up that if Mongoose sent the scenario file to Lucky when the game started (since Lucky was the first to play) rather than Mongoose playing the first save on behalf of GCA, that it would be possible for Lucky to alter the scenario file, as well as know the admin password. Since I honestly don't remember for sure how the game started in this respect, I can't be sure whether this is a possibility or not. Again, asking Mongoose to refresh our memory on the subject may be helpful.

* There may be other reasons why the corruption values would be different that we are not thinking of... Perhaps there is some as yet undiscovered bug involved in changing PTW patch versions or somesuch oddness? Who knows... If you have a bright idea, speak up.

* This all assumes, of course, that E_T is correct about the corruption values being different at all.

	20-03-2004 17:19									#3
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I can give evidence of certain PTWDG rules being "different" in the latest version of the PTW patch. The thing is, such evidence is really kind of a private affair and I am not free to disclose it.

Trip is however, a witness to this, in the broader sense that the latest patches did not necessarily correct certain phenomena in games which had already started.

(yeah, sorry for being so vague, I just really can't get into details on this.)

-MZ

	20-03-2004 17:33									#4
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Sounds like something in the PTWDG I and maybe II....

MZ, we have divulged a LOT of things from that particular game(s), because we used them to help us get ready for this game. If it's something that partains to this discussion, then say so. If not, then It's not something that you need to go into any further.

E_T

	20-03-2004 20:01									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hmmm... I am mostly likely just going to demonstrate my own ignorance... but speaking about weird things in PtW(DG): how many shields is the city square supposed to be generating? One (two in the GA)? Is that terrain dependent?

	20-03-2004 22:03									#6
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Sounds like something in the PTWDG I and maybe II.... MZ, we have divulged a LOT of things from that particular game(s), because we used them to help us get ready for this game. If it's something that partains to this discussion, then say so. If not, then It's not something that you need to go into any further. E_T

E_T,

the reason I made this post is to explain that there are things in these games which are not consistent with the changes made during the various patches. Consider that this game has been going on since what, 1.14? That means it has been patched around 3 times let alone that people with different versions have played it meaning some things are bound to have been affected.

Look at the PTWDG and all the countless bugs we have encountered, many of which no-one has seen in a PBEM. My point is that I'm not surprised that corruption in this game is a bit skewered, nor would I be surprised if other things weren't exactly as the 1.27 stock rules would have them.

I mentioned my experience in the PTWDG as an example, I cannot give the details because it would be a factor which could affect GoW in the long run if it were disclosed and I am not about to hurt one game for the sake of benefitting another.

-MZ

	21-03-2004 04:41									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

We knew that corruption was off way back at the beginning. I discovered it when siming things very early. It made it somewhat of a pain when Trip and I (and BF) were siming the build up for the war.

	21-03-2004 05:25									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I mentioned my experience in the PTWDG as an example, I cannot give the details because it would be a factor which could affect GoW in the long run if it were disclosed and I am not about to hurt one game for the sake of benefitting another.

MZ, I sure hope I read this wrong... you make it sound like you have found some kind of difference, or even bug, in the PTWDG save that is helping GoW as compared to stock PTW. There have been nearly no exploit issues in the PTWDG, but it sure sounds like you're exploiting something you don't want to share with the other teams. Maybe we have been using the same thing without knowing it was different, but I agree with E_T, you make it sound like something all should know about.

DeepO

	21-03-2004 05:47									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO MZ, I sure hope I read this wrong... you make it sound like you have found some kind of difference, or even bug, in the PTWDG save that is helping GoW as compared to stock PTW. There have been nearly no exploit issues in the PTWDG, but it sure sounds like you're exploiting something you don't want to share with the other teams. Maybe we have been using the same thing without knowing it was different, but I agree with E_T, you make it sound like something all should know about. DeepO

Trip knows about what I'm talking about, I leave it to him to decide if it should be disclosed or not. Btw, it's something that happened a loooooooong time ago (before I was emperor) and is not "helping" GoW at all at this moment.

I'm sorry for having brought this up, I just wanted to mention that these games likely end up messed up from so much patching.

	21-03-2004 17:51									#10
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We knew that corruption was off way back at the beginning. I discovered it when siming things very early. It made it somewhat of a pain when Trip and I (and BF) were siming the build up for the war.

Yes, and at that time, we tossed it off to a quirk between SP and PBEM. At that time, we still even hadn't gotten the 2 cities gifted from CDG and it wasn't enough of a problem to really worry about.

Then, IIRC, with a little bit of PBEM testing, it showed to be closer and wasn;t much of an issue and was forgotten. Later, after the war, when I was needing a sim for further planning (especially with visualizing the workers moves/actions), this was starting to become and issue. And recently, as I was taking my sim step by step to the Palace Move, after working on my sheets, did I really start seeing that I was getting too much of a difference, in the outer cities, like EN, Dom and a few others. But the difference now was enough to Quantify as about 5% difference in the actual game and the sims.

E_T

	22-03-2004 14:23									#11
	Put an end to popups!

I never wrote it off to anything other than differences in the biq file that launched the game. *shrug*

	27-03-2004 05:41									#12
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Any resolutions reached on this?

	27-03-2004 06:11									#13
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E_T has concluded the Optimum city % is at 85% instead of 90%.

	27-03-2004 19:23									#14
	Got spare money?

Not entirely, I have concluded that AT THIS POINT IN TIME, that is what the situation appears to be and that a sim using this (85% NOPT) will be close enough for sometime to come. It won't be until after the Palace move and we get some of the outlying cities up to Pop speed until I can make any further comparisons.

I CAN say that this FEELS like that this is the right item and amount of change. I CAN say that this fits the situation within the limits of the compairative testing that I have been able to do.

But for right now, it's good enough to get the job done.

MoI E_T