22-03-2004 03:43									#32
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I thought you worshipped the Lord God Putin?

	22-03-2004 03:43									#33
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Marx is a prophet of the Lord God

	22-03-2004 04:02									#34
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commies

	22-03-2004 04:17									#35
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Edit: Argh, I quoted my previous post instead of editing it. Please disregard

	22-03-2004 04:17									#36
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I think that the solution to this problem is obvious. If you want to raise a child to be a good communist you must oppress the tyke relentlessly. Treat her like chatel. Take everything away from her, particularily anything she actually produces by herself. Give her a corner of the basement to sleep in and feed her gruel while you and the wife dine on steak and potatoes. Put her to work at an early age. Make her work for long hours with low wages. Never concede to her demands, and if she persists for asking for a little more gruel at mealtime toss her out into the street. If she comes knocking at your door demanding "bread and peace" show her and her rabble friends a whiff of grapeshot, or a taste of cold Cossack steel. When she and her friends gather spy on them. Pay off her friends to rat on her. Before you punish her don't hear her side of the story, but instead give her a mere show trial. Make punishment excessive and unrelated to the offense, in fact, be sure to punish her foten even when she's done nothing. Finally, never let her get the idea in her head that she's anything but the dregs of society. Put her down relentlessly.

When you've done all this, my son, you'll have a commie!

	22-03-2004 04:19									#37
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"gruel"

	22-03-2004 04:45									#38
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My youngest son is either a communist or socialist at 18 months.

When I feed him he always takes some of his food and attempts to feed me as well.

When he is playing he always takes a toy and hands it to someone else to play with.

When you refuse the toy or the food he throws a tantrum.

	22-03-2004 04:54									#39
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This is laughable. It is the free market that goes against human nature, if you take human nature as that set of dispositions that our primitive ancestors possessed and which we still possess and which informs our sense of morality.

In village communities sharing was natural and the thought of enriching yourself at the expense of the rest of the community was frowned upon. Reciprocity was the norm. You still find this sort of thing occurring in small communities. I know, I grew up in one.

What definitely goes against the grain is the idea at the heart of capitalism, that by acting completely selfishly I benefit everyone. You can still see this disposition at work in the objections that people have to mercenary business practices, ripoffs and price gouging - even though from the view of the market these things make sense.

So don't give me that "capitalism is natural" crap. It simply isn't. Capitalism is a finely tuned social system that goes against many of our instinctive dispositions and requires a great deal of belief and institutionalization on our parts to make it work. Just look at the disasters the "leave it to the market" cretins have created in Russia, for example.

	22-03-2004 04:55									#40
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quote: When you refuse the toy or the food he throws a tantrum.

Ah, so he is forcing you to share... How communist

	22-03-2004 04:58									#41
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Not in this scenario, Imran. Remember: "Assuming that the rest of the world is with you (so you can't counterargue that "society will screw with 'em")..." so they can't go that route.

Does she understand the concept of "mine" the same way you do? Perhaps she is demanding to be the current user rather than the aeternal owner.

	22-03-2004 05:00									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon This is laughable. It is the free market that goes against human nature, if you take human nature as that set of dispositions that our primitive ancestors possessed and which we still possess and which informs our sense of morality. In village communities sharing was natural and the thought of enriching yourself at the expense of the rest of the community was frowned upon. Reciprocity was the norm. You still find this sort of thing occurring in small communities. I know, I grew up in one. What definitely goes against the grain is the idea at the heart of capitalism, that by acting completely selfishly I benefit everyone. You can still see this disposition at work in the objections that people have to mercenary business practices, ripoffs and price gouging - even though from the view of the market these things make sense. So don't give me that "capitalism is natural" crap. It simply isn't. Capitalism is a finely tuned social system that goes against many of our instinctive dispositions and requires a great deal of belief and institutionalization on our parts to make it work. Just look at the disasters the "leave it to the market" cretins have created in Russia, for example.

No one claims that by acting selfishly you benefit everyone. In fact, everyone acting selfishly can be worse than everyone acting nice. Capitalism just says that it is utterly stupid to force people to play nice. Capitalism allows the situation where they do, but it doesn't force it.

	22-03-2004 05:50									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich No one claims that by acting selfishly you benefit everyone.

Own goal. Ever heard of market fundamentalists?

quote: In fact, everyone acting selfishly can be worse than everyone acting nice. Capitalism just says that it is utterly stupid to force people to play nice. Capitalism allows the situation where they do, but it doesn't force it.

Of course it does. If you don't honour your contracts or pay your debts men with guns will turn up to your house and compel you to do so.

All tenable political systems rest on the threat of force.

	22-03-2004 05:53									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Own goal. Ever heard of market fundamentalists?

Own goal indeed -- your assertion said capitalists, not specifically market fundamentalists, and I would argue that not all capitalists assert that people acting selfishly makes everyone better off.

You're just a commie because you know without a large, monolithic government paying your rent, no one else will.

	22-03-2004 05:56									#45
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Aggie's been getting selfish lately and painting ideologies with a wide brush, isn't he?

	22-03-2004 05:58									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Of course it does. If you don't honour your contracts or pay your debts men with guns will turn up to your house and compel you to do so. All tenable political systems rest on the threat of force.

There's a difference between that and "being nice", i.e. sharing and working for the good of everyone.

	22-03-2004 05:59									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Own goal indeed -- your assertion said capitalists, not specifically market fundamentalists, and I would argue that not all capitalists assert that people acting selfishly makes everyone better off.

Markets work (when they do) because each person's attempt to better his own holdings of capital result in him producing goods which other people want. The fact that others do the same results in competition and lower prices and (supposedly) results in the optimal level of production of that particular kind of good. It's called the "Invisible hand". Markets generally rely on selfishness.

A capitalist who is not committed to lassez faire is to that degree not a capitalist.

quote: You're just a commie because you know without a large, monolithic government paying your rent, no one else will.

My wife.

	22-03-2004 06:02									#48
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quote: Markets generally rely on selfishness.

Hopefully you realize the difference between selfishness and self-interest?

	22-03-2004 06:06									#49
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Yes, one is spelled differently than the other.

It doesn't matter, markets require us to forgo our natural altruism in order to work properly. If we don't do that, then prices will not be set at the optimal rate.

	22-03-2004 06:10									#50
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quote: markets require us to forgo our natural altruism in order to work properly.

Natural altruism is forgone? No capitalist, except the really wacko ones say that charity is off limits. The problem is those that believe everyone wants to be altruistic all the time.

	22-03-2004 06:13									#51
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Well, my answer would be that children go trough morality stages. They start with very basic rules that you have to teach them no matter what (don't steal, don't use violence, share) and learn to think about them much later.

	22-03-2004 06:14									#52
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Sophie is stupid. Throw rocks at her.

	22-03-2004 06:19									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: markets require us to forgo our natural altruism in order to work properly. Natural altruism is forgone? No capitalist, except the really wacko ones say that charity is off limits. The problem is those that believe everyone wants to be altruistic all the time.

Some of the more radical ones do.

None of this changes the fact that when you are a buyer you want the lowest possible price, and when you are a seller the opposite. If you don't insist on that, the market won't work. Markets require us to suppress our natural altruism - that is hard to do - look at the problems traditional native societies have had moving to a market system.

All I'm saying is that JohnT's assertion is not supported by the facts. Capitalism is not natural to us - it's a sophisticated social institution that needs to inculcate certain beliefs and attitudes into people in order to work - dispositions which are at odds with our natural altruism.

	22-03-2004 06:33									#54
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The point isn't that humans are naturally inclined towards capitalism or communism (though if one were to make that argument, surely the fact that we've only been capitalist for the last few hundred years, while for about three million we were communist would show what we are "naturally"). What we argue is that humans are by nature, social creatures, and that we make our societies and our relations with each other. Thus, we are as naturally communist as we are capitalist.

Birdseed is very correct to point out that the two-year old child is not a model of ideal human relations, in any society.

	22-03-2004 06:35									#55
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quote: Markets require us to suppress our natural altruism

And is a channel for our natural greed, so it doesn't overwhelm.

	22-03-2004 09:59									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Markets require us to suppress our natural altruism And is a channel for our natural greed, so it doesn't overwhelm.

What kind of natural greed will make a person goes out and crush everybody else who opposes him?

	22-03-2004 10:02									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What kind of natural greed will make a person goes out and crush everybody else who opposes him?

Are you talking about communist revolutions?

Or Che?

Or maybe even Castro?

	22-03-2004 10:02									#58
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The point isn't that humans are naturally inclined towards capitalism or communism (though if one were to make that argument, surely the fact that we've only been capitalist for the last few hundred years, while for about three million we were communist would show what we are "naturally"). What we argue is that humans are by nature, social creatures, and that we make our societies and our relations with each other. Thus, we are as naturally communist as we are capitalist. Birdseed is very correct to point out that the two-year old child is not a model of ideal human relations, in any society.

Yes. I'm surprised how manny people seem to ignore Marx' insistence that economic reality is largely the cause of our view of human nature rather than the other way around.

	22-03-2004 10:03									#59
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quote: What kind of natural greed will make a person goes out and crush everybody else who opposes him?

You ever read history? That seems to be the normal state of things.

	22-03-2004 10:06									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: What kind of natural greed will make a person goes out and crush everybody else who opposes him? You ever read history? That seems to be the normal state of things.

Only natural to lawyers