22-03-2004 22:31									#1
	Chariots: What if? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This suggestion is only for standard Chariot.
Have them -1hp
But give them attack of 2.


What do you think?

	22-03-2004 23:12									#2
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I never build them, especially now that upgrades cost more.

	23-03-2004 00:09									#3
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I never build them, especially now that upgrades cost more.

Me either. Horsemen become available so quickly. I forget what they cost in shields to produce compared to a warrior (and I'm at work so I can't look it up), but what about making them cheaper also?

	23-03-2004 00:34									#4
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I don't like it for one reason, player1. Horsemen, as noted above, come so early that the primary, if not only, reason anyone builds chariots is for upgrade. With your changes, all upgrading does is remove the wheeled flag (I think, or would you get that extra hitpoint back?). If you'd get the extra hp back, I like it a little more, but still am not very excited by it. IOW, it won't make chariots any more useful for me and I'm not covinced it would help the AI very much, if at all.

to you for all the thought you're putting into this and all the ideas you're tossing out, though.

Last edited by Solomwi on 23-03-2004 at 06:26

	23-03-2004 00:37									#5
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The obvious answer is to move horseback ridding back in the chain-to give chariots time to exist.

	23-03-2004 03:54									#6
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The obvious answer is to move horseback ridding back in the chain-to give chariots time to exist.

Then the same problem exists on the other end, though. Knights come at about the right time, and too early to really allow both chariots and horsemen to have their fully developed "day in the sun", so to speak. I'd much rather cut the age of the chariot short than the age of the horseman.

Besides, there's not a whole lot of room to slide HBR around. At least there isn't any more room than the player can already make with his tech choices.

	23-03-2004 04:50									#7
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Of course you'll get hp back when you upgrade.

	23-03-2004 05:21									#8
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Make chariots CHEAPER and reduce the 1 hp.
then you could use them for an early rush, though they wouldnt be too dangerous.

	23-03-2004 13:39									#9
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Hmm...

And I thought that I actaully made them slightly overpowered.
(2.1.2, -1hp, cost 20)

	23-03-2004 14:21									#10
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I think (2.1.2, -1hp, cost 20) is a bit overpowered. 3 chariots with total hp of 9 cost the same as 2 horsemen with total hp of 8? Even considering withdrawl and promotion of opponent, horseman hasn't got an edge over chariot.

	23-03-2004 17:41									#11
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Still, it can't go through mountains and jungles.

	23-03-2004 18:47									#12
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are we talking regular chariots or egyptian war chariots? I thought regular chariots had an ADM of 1.1.2....

	23-03-2004 19:14									#13
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We're talking about regular chariots, and yes, they do have 1.1.2. player1 is thinking about changing that for his mod.

	23-03-2004 20:56									#14
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Hmm, dunno.

I will still build chariots for upgrade, though not like I used to in PTW. It's usually a smaller number, if any at all, since HBR seems to roll around much faster. I'm doing much more aggressive research in Conquests (though I normally get HBR via trade, not my own research).

I suppose you could just add a hit point. 1.1.2., cost 20, +1hp.

:shrug:

-Arrian

	23-03-2004 22:39									#15
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Why not keep the stats at 1/1/2, but drop the cost to 10? At least then they will have some use.

Or drop the horses requirement, but keep the same stats/price. Rationale: riding horses are of higher quality. That is even better because it makes horsemen a viable alternative to swordsmen/catapults or even just swordsmen.

	23-03-2004 23:25									#16
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Ug. Chariots costing the same as a warrior? Not in love with that idea.

I don't think the issue is their shield cost. If anything, lowering their shield cost will just make them more expensive to upgrade (which is what most people do with chariots anyway).

If there's a problem with chariots (and I don't actually think there is) it's that there's such a small window of use for them. Unless you are going either the CB/ Mysticism research path or the Alphabet/ Writing/ Phil path, you are only a couple techs away from a significantly better unit (either swords or horsemen).

With that in mind, it seems to me that chariots can be marginally useful in certain (albeit limited) situations: they provide a multimove combat unit for those players who choose to beeline down the CB or Writing research paths. Beyond that, not particularly valuable.

player1, my recommendation would be to leave it as is. There are always going to be units or buidings that don't have much use (explorers, for example). I respect your desire to optimize/ enhance this unit, but I think you'll end up nerfing horsemen, which will force you to mess with that, which screws up knights, and so on, and so on until you're rendered as incoherent as this post

	24-03-2004 05:23									#17
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I agree that something needs to be done with chariots. It's a shame to have a unit that essentially exists only to be upgraded. It would be nice if they had some bonus that makes them still potentially useful when Horsemen come along. My suggestion would be to give them 0-range bombardment; I can imagine sending out some chariots with the horsemen to provide a bit of defensive backup.

	24-03-2004 15:59									#18
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I still think cheaper and -1hp is the way to go. chariots easily break you know, just look at ben hur
more expensive to upgrade? why? because of the shield difference? I admit I dont know how upgrade cost is calculated, but still, training your troops to get on the bleeding animal and to fight, and to not fall of, and to breed good fighting horses etc, it aint cheap!
though you might make some cash from selling the extra chariots as rickshaws...

	24-03-2004 16:42									#19
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Chariots do have occasional uses, although it largely depends on your starting terrain (at least for the way I use them). Sometimes 2 or 3 chariots acting as a mobile defence and able to get in to (for example) 3 cities to boost their garrison can be worth more than 4-6 warriors spread around those cities (plus they can get to the other end of your empire more quickly should you suddenly develop a need for them there). Basically, they can be an emergency filler - one chariot can effectively replace 3 warriors in some circumstances - at least until you can get a more organised defence and response sorted out. But it depends a great deal on terrain, resources and starting techs (not to mention your style of expansion), and more often than not chariots aren't any real use.

Well, other than the fact that you can build 2 or 3 of them and use them as per Aeson's suggestion for the Jaguar Warrior to cripple a neighbouring AI civ early on (although the wheeled flag might hurt their capabilities slightly).