23-03-2004 00:41									#1
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Now that we have two new nifty specialist, the policeman and the civil engineer, I think-why not another one, the artist?

What is the point of the artist? Each artist, cost 1 gp like police, would give you one culture point a year. This way you don't need a temple to expand the borders, though you would still want it for the happiness boost. Culture creation doe NOT increase with time unlike with buildings-one artist, one culture point all the time.

This new specialist would come with free artistry.

	23-03-2004 00:46									#2
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I like it

-Arrian

	23-03-2004 03:25									#3
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Seems like a good idea to me. Maybe in the ancient/medieval eras it could be a priest, and then it become an artist...or a priest could be more expensive, but also provide happiness.

Anyways, this might be a good thing to post in the Civ4 forum.

Happy posting

	23-03-2004 03:58									#4
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Mad props for the idea and for the avatar, Nietzsche.

	23-03-2004 05:20									#5
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I like it too.

Perhaps is also a good idea to have era- - advance specific specialist?.

For example...

Philosopher -> Priest -> Artist .
Inventor -> Scientist
Tax Man -> Accountant .. (like DyP)
Labourer -> serf (sp?) -> Engineer

And so on.... making their abilities increase a little by ages.

	23-03-2004 05:24									#6
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what does the civil engineer actually do? I know he's supposed to increase production, but I see no sign of it when I create one...

	23-03-2004 06:30									#7
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Produces 2 spt, LzrPrst. It isn't reflected in the production/waste row (I wish it were, like gold/beakers/luxury spending are), but if you have enough of them to make a difference, it will be reflected in build time in the city view, and on map view. Try it in a one shield city to see the difference every time.

Edit: It doesn't affect unit builds, though, only improvements (wonders? never tried it).

	24-03-2004 05:13									#8
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Ah yes, I think I suggested this a while ago somewhere. Honest. I like the idea but I wonder if it might cause imbalancing - could it make a culture victory too easy, rather like in the Mesoamerica Conquest? Of course, they could just set the limits for such a victory that much higher.

	24-03-2004 05:18									#9
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It would allow for a level of autonomous culture - independent of buildings etc. In fact, I think culture is the only major factor which cannot be represented without a building of some sort.

I.e., you can get military units by draft; you can create happiness without building anything; likewise for corruption and science; money; even production bonuses. So why not culture?

	24-03-2004 05:47									#10
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I like the overall idea. The one place I could see it being possibly overpowering is in newly conquered cities, especially late in the game. Switch five citizens to artists and pop the borders right out, giving protection from attack and freeing up more units to press the attack further.

War by art!

	24-03-2004 06:55									#11
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I like the 'artist' idea. To keep artists from making a cultural victory too easy, it could be implemented so that artists' culture points don't contribute towards a cultural victory.

The 'problem' Solomwi mentioned could be solved by not allowing foreign citizens to be changed into artists.

	24-03-2004 07:04									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon The 'problem' Solomwi mentioned could be solved by not allowing foreign citizens to be changed into artists.

Then how would the Americans be able to benefit from it?

(Pre-emptive disclaimer: Yes, I know about all the great American artists throughout our history. It was just a joke based on popular perception. )

	24-03-2004 10:20									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon I like the 'artist' idea. To keep artists from making a cultural victory too easy, it could be implemented so that artists' culture points don't contribute towards a cultural victory. The 'problem' Solomwi mentioned could be solved by not allowing foreign citizens to be changed into artists.

Agreed. Foreign artists would create works which advance the culture of their native civilization!

Wow, everything is fitting into place. Artists in the next patch, perhaps?

	24-03-2004 20:44									#14
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Great idea! But this should be avaible before free artistry with the difference that before you need 2 artist to generate 1 culture point.

	25-03-2004 03:38									#15
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I don;t like the idea of not letting the culture produced count towards a culture victory-ways I think to make artist not very powerful

1. Size restrictions for artists (towns must be so big)
2. Make them cost more than 1 gold

Still you need 20,000 culture points in a single city to win a culture victory, that or 100,000 civ wide. At 1 point per one artist coming only near the end of the medeival period, I don't think they would make a cultural victory so easy.

Can this be moded in right now?

	25-03-2004 03:47									#16
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I do notthink so, since in the rules there is no option for culture to be produced by a specialist; only shields, tax, beakers, lux and cooruption.

What a pity.

Last edited by Krill on 25-03-2004 at 04:28

	25-03-2004 04:20									#17
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Hmm, I like it GePap

	25-03-2004 05:09									#18
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There would have to be a limit to this otherwise it would make culture bombarding way too easy (cultural Vic's are unsatisfying anyway) Probably a limit of two artists per city and they should cost at least 2 gold to maintain.

Edit:

On a related topic, how about some industrial to modern city improvements to provide culture. Below are some options:

Art Museums
Night Clubs (also provide happiness)
Stadiums (really an upgrade of the Colloseum)
Resort/ Spa
Casinos
Broadway (SW)
Hollywood wonder
Cinemas
Mass Media (SW)

Of course not all of these could or should be in Civ 4 but an addition of 1-2 of these would be a good improvement to the late industrial and modern game

Last edited by Mad Bomber on 25-03-2004 at 05:20

	25-03-2004 06:33									#19
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I like it. The main problem is then that the buildings normally relied on for culture aren't as important. Cultural buildings (happiness) are already rather useless IMO. Maybe that's irrelevent though, as I already don't build them in most cases (research culture is more than enough usually).

	25-03-2004 06:45									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think it will make it way too easy to expand culture borders in captured cities (and in your own more corrupt cities).

I'm with Aeson on the usefulness of happiness buildings. The only time I would build a temple is to expand cultural borders (or if I have nothing useful to build which happens sometimes). With culture specialists I doubt I'd ever build a single temple.

This can be adressed by making temples etc. more useful, but then it becomes a pretty complicated change.

	25-03-2004 07:26									#21
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That's nice for all of you warmongers that go

Despo>>Monarchy>>Fascism/Communism

Or stay in Republic

But I prefer to have a Republican Democracy as my government and war weariness is much more managable with happiness improvements. Also I might actually play with cultral victory enabled if more cultural options were available after the Midieval age.

I also like to play well into the modern age so I do not see modern age improvements as unnecessary or useless.

	25-03-2004 12:14									#22
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"Despo>>Monarchy>>Fascism/Communism"

That's a lot of government switching, I hope they are religious.

	25-03-2004 16:06									#23
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2 governments is a lot of switching?

You probably think I'm nuts for going to Republic first before democracy.

	25-03-2004 22:18									#24
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I only switch once if not religious. With about an avg of 6 turns of anarchy, it is too expensive. I have seen 9 turns even.

As to Dem, I don't use it or even research it.

	26-03-2004 05:07									#25
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And to think that I have actually had a 1 turn transition to democracy. (builder game, bee-lined to it, ended ancient age in 2750BC)

	29-03-2004 16:39									#26
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Good idea.

	30-03-2004 00:19									#27
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It is a good idea. And don't fear it to be overpowered: a specialist costs mucho, in that he doesn't produce the many riches of a worked tile.

Besides, now that specialists have been boosted in Conquests, there are better things to do with your plentiful population than making them artists: an excess population of civil engineers or of scientists (now 3 times more interesting then before) can really make a difference. An artist doesn't produce any immediate benefit, and one culture isn't that much.

	31-03-2004 18:51									#28
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Bring on the artist

	01-04-2004 09:29									#29
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It's a great idea!

I like the Free Artistry timing too....in C3C the AI doesn't seem to research it until very late, so it may place more emphasis on that tech (or perhaps that's because of the flavours in the AU Mod I play with).

	05-04-2004 08:57									#30
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Thats a good idea, but 1 culture point is too much each 'Artist' or 'Spy Agent'. Either the first culture limit of 10 should be increased, or each Artist should only produce 0.2 of a point- Then it would take 25 turns to expand with 2 artists.
It would be great for modding, either allowing all laborers to produce a Culture bonus, so culture expands more with a bigger population.. simulating How bigger populations have more democratic and inter-cultural control. Negative culture could be incurred for Police men too, or Scientists or others , depending how you understand culture should work.

A Spy or Diplomat Specialist type would be good too, or maybe it would be similar to Artist. This would defend against espionage attacks and maybe attack enemy targets using espionage. It could reduce spying costs nearby , or even give a chance of sabotaging nearby enemy units. They could also put down Resistance , but decrease luxuries and culture.