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player1 is offline player1
King
Belgrade, YU
Sep 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 23-03-2004 18:17
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Cruise Missiles: Balanced? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

They have bomb. rating of 16, range of 4 and rate of fire of 3.
Compared to Radar Artilley, they have same bombing firepower and slighty greater range.
But you can use Radar Artillery as often as you can.
On the other hand, cruise missiles can hit units lethaly.

So what't your opinion.
Are they ok as they are, or they need some boost?

Jaybe is offline Jaybe

King
Las Vegas, NV USA
Sep 2001
time: 21:34
  Old Post 23-03-2004 21:15
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Add stealth attack so they can hit your target of choice! -- (thanks for the inspiration)

The problem isn't cruise missiles, it's radar artillery. So I made artillery non-upgradeable and radar artillery as expensive as modern armor (160 for me).

My one desire is to have a 2-movement regular artillery,
[EDIT] ... but it would have to be an upgrade. OTOH, the problem has always been keeping those tubes fed -- even in Iraq they didn't have enough resupply vehicles for the artillery, and the MLRS (radar arty in C3C) was just used for counter-battery fire.

cannon: BRF=6.1.2 (not 8.1.1)
arty: BRF=10.2.2 (not 12.2.2, too strong for an AI that never uses it offensively)

Last edited by Jaybe on 23-03-2004 at 21:28

Mad Bomber is offline Mad Bomber
King
Columbus, Ohio
Nov 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 24-03-2004 00:34
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Player1:

The cruise missle should have a range much further than 4 and have a much cheaper cost, which is justified because it is a throwaway unit. A Radar Artillery will pay for its cost by the time it attacks a third target when compared to the Cruise Missle

Jaybee:

Resupply is always a concern in any combat but the real problem with the MLRS's was that it needed to stop to reload and that it carried a limited number of rounds when compared to tube artillery. In the most current Gulf War the Paladin was able to keep more accurate fire for a much longer time than the MLRS of Gulf War I.

tomcat ha is offline tomcat ha
Warlord

Nov 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 24-03-2004 01:41
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ive never used cruise missels my bomber horde made it useless

player1 is offline player1
King
Belgrade, YU
Sep 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 24-03-2004 04:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Player1:

The cruise missle should have a range much further than 4 and have a much cheaper cost, which is justified because it is a throwaway unit. A Radar Artillery will pay for its cost by the time it attacks a third target when compared to the Cruise Missle


I don't like increasing range, since that would make it too close to range of Tactical Nukes.

But, as for the cost, I'll think something.


Maybe 40 shields?

player1 is offline player1
King
Belgrade, YU
Sep 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 24-03-2004 04:38
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By the way, unfortunately Stealth Attack only works for melee units and not for bombardment.

Solomwi is offline Solomwi

King
Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:34
  Old Post 24-03-2004 04:47
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The beauty of cruise missiles is that, with a little planning, you can have an immense bombardment force with minimal upkeep cost. Optimally, you survey the scene on turn n, decide how many you'll need on turn n+1, set that many cities to producing (by the time CM are available, you should have plenty of 60 shield cities, but insert my standard huge map disclaimer here), then gather them up on turn n+1 and use them all, rinse and repeat. I'm not sure when the treasury is calculated, iow, whether this is one turn upkeep or none, but either way it's a good balancer for a "suicidal" unit.

Jaybe is offline Jaybe

King
Las Vegas, NV USA
Sep 2001
time: 21:34
  Old Post 24-03-2004 06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by player1
By the way, unfortunately Stealth Attack only works for melee units and not for bombardment.

Hmm, I am quite positive that I did not give Stealth Fighter-&-Bomber "Stealth Attack.

Jaybe is offline Jaybe

King
Las Vegas, NV USA
Sep 2001
time: 21:34
  Old Post 24-03-2004 09:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaybe
quote:
By the way, unfortunately Stealth Attack only works for melee units and not for bombardment.

Hmm, I am quite positive that I did not give Stealth Fighter-&-Bomber "Stealth Attack.

Yes JB, they come with it in stock C3C, but that does not mean that it works with stealth fighters/bombers or w/cruise missiles.

(I just checked it out, and no, they don't work)

Mad Bomber is offline Mad Bomber
King
Columbus, Ohio
Nov 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 24-03-2004 17:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Solomwi
The beauty of cruise missiles is that, with a little planning, you can have an immense bombardment force with minimal upkeep cost. Optimally, you survey the scene on turn n, decide how many you'll need on turn n+1, set that many cities to producing (by the time CM are available, you should have plenty of 60 shield cities, but insert my standard huge map disclaimer here), then gather them up on turn n+1 and use them all, rinse and repeat. I'm not sure when the treasury is calculated, iow, whether this is one turn upkeep or none, but either way it's a good balancer for a "suicidal" unit.


Use of mass cruise missles is certainly a way to keep your military cost from rising further.

Player1:

Cruise missles are in fact tactical missles, some are limited iin range but the most common variant of the Tomahawk (TLAM-C) has a 2500nm range and can be mated with a W80 warhead (a tactical nuke)

vulture is offline vulture
King
Leeds, UK
Jun 2001
time: 05:34
  Old Post 24-03-2004 18:47
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pedant mode ON:

2500 nm range??? That's barely bigger than a good-sized molecule!

pedant mode OFF

Jaybe is offline Jaybe

King
Las Vegas, NV USA
Sep 2001
time: 21:34
  Old Post 24-03-2004 21:07
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quote:
2500 nm range??? That's barely bigger than a good-sized molecule!

Nano-Meters, Nautical Miles -- what's the difference?

Mad Bomber is offline Mad Bomber
King
Columbus, Ohio
Nov 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 25-03-2004 02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaybe
quote:
2500 nm range??? That's barely bigger than a good-sized molecule!

Nano-Meters, Nautical Miles -- what's the difference?




I didn't think that I needed to clarify but I was indeed refering to Nautical Miles, not nano meters. A nautical mile is slightly shorter than a mile and slightly longer than a Kilometer. A nano meter is well, significantly less.

vmxa1 is offline vmxa1
Deity
Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:34
  Old Post 25-03-2004 03:25
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What, a nautical mile is 6,076 feet or 1,852 meters. So it is more than a mile (5,280 feet).

I got something out of my 5 1/2 years in the Navy.

Mad Bomber is offline Mad Bomber
King
Columbus, Ohio
Nov 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 25-03-2004 04:45
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oops....

I thought it was a little shorter, but I am mistaken. I knew it was longer than a klick but I did not realize it was almost twice the length.

Mace is offline Mace
Warlord
Trade Empire of the Carthaginians
Nov 2003
time: 23:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 04:11
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(1 nautical mile = 1.15 statute miles)

My opinion is that a tactical nuke = a cruise missile.
A Tomahawk, for example, can be fitted with a nuclear warhead (TLAM-N) making it a tactical nuke, or a conventional HE (high explosive) warhead, making it a cruise missile. So in my MOD I have increased the range of a cruise missile more in line with that of a tactical nuke.

I'm also toying with the idea of giving Cruise Missiles the 'tactical missile' flag, and allowing AEGIS Cruisers to carry cruise missiles...
The Tico CG's can in real life, after all...

Solomwi is offline Solomwi

King
Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 04:50
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Duh, just realized that the tactical flag would accomplish the same thing.

Last edited by Solomwi on 26-03-2004 at 05:41

Mad Bomber is offline Mad Bomber
King
Columbus, Ohio
Nov 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 05:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace
(1 nautical mile = 1.15 statute miles)

My opinion is that a tactical nuke = a cruise missile.
A Tomahawk, for example, can be fitted with a nuclear warhead (TLAM-N) making it a tactical nuke, or a conventional HE (high explosive) warhead, making it a cruise missile. So in my MOD I have increased the range of a cruise missile more in line with that of a tactical nuke.

I'm also toying with the idea of giving Cruise Missiles the 'tactical missile' flag, and allowing AEGIS Cruisers to carry cruise missiles...
The Tico CG's can in real life, after all...


Ah, we have similar minds. Make the mod I think you will enjoy it. Also make sure the rebase is enabled so that your Cruisers (and BB's for me) do not have to go home to replenish.

Oncle Boris is offline Oncle Boris
Prince
Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
  Old Post 29-03-2004 16:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Player1:

The cruise missle should have a range much further than 4 and have a much cheaper cost, which is justified because it is a throwaway unit. A Radar Artillery will pay for its cost by the time it attacks a third target when compared to the Cruise Missle


By definition, the range of a cruise missile is 300km or less. That's why the SCUDs were forbidden while the others (don't remember their name) were OK.

wrylachlan is offline wrylachlan
Prince

Apr 2002
time: 05:34
  Old Post 29-03-2004 21:05
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I think that the problem with cruise missiles is the relative scale and effectiveness.

The only cities you can hit with a cruise missile are cities near the coast. But if they're on the coast, its generally more cost effective to soften them up with naval bombardment (which is reusable), and then do a marine assault.

Also, because of the way city placement tends to work, cities are either on the coast or, by CxxxC 5 tiles away from the coast and out of range. Even if a city is 4 tiles away from the coast (within CM range), you have to move the ship right next to the coast in order to launch, which puts the ship within land-based bombardment range.

Ideally, the CM should be able to hit a city off the coast, which generally means either 4 or 5 tiles in, while leaving the ship out of land bombardment range (2 off the coast) for a total of range 6 or 7.

The advantage of CM is that it is a precision weapon, and it doesn't endanger your troops.

Ideally, and this may be a Civ4 thing, war weariness should have to do with the number of your actual troops you put in battle, and the number lost, thus a CM attack would be much more effective on the WW front, than an actual invasion.

And as for the precision thing, it kind of bites that you can't make CM have Stealth Attack.

The best balance I can think of is to make them much cheaper, much weaker in terms of bombardment value. Give them a longer range and Stealth Attack, and then use them to knock out infrastructure.

Mad Bomber is offline Mad Bomber
King
Columbus, Ohio
Nov 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 31-03-2004 17:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Oncle Boris


By definition, the range of a cruise missile is 300km or less. That's why the SCUDs were forbidden while the others (don't remember their name) were OK.




[Mad bomber, wishing for ROTFLMAO smiley]

Scuds only have a range of about 100km and it has absolutely no reason why they were banned. THe limit the US put on Iraqi missles were to prevent a launch of a missle with a WMD against Israel during our next invasion. This tactic worked out splendidly as the Iraqi's actually let their improved scuds be destroyed and the US still invaded.! [/Mad Bomber wish]

planetfall is offline planetfall
Prince
Incoming from CO
Jan 2002
time: 22:34
  Old Post 05-04-2004 17:12
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TN as super cruise missile.

With 1.20, if change TN to remove nuke and add cruise missile and increase offense to 100. NO DAMAGE occurs. I forgot to change AEGIS so SSN and AEGIS can't transport, but it can be air lifted. Go figure. Graphics for bombard are same as for normal TN but only the center tile and no pollution in the adjacent tiles. Unfortunately 100 does not work. I wonder if 100 is out of bounds for this unit even though you can set it in the editor.

PF

planetfall is offline planetfall
Prince
Incoming from CO
Jan 2002
time: 22:34
  Old Post 05-04-2004 17:19
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Update, confirmed 100 was for bombardment and not offense.

The Hack is offline The Hack
Chieftain

Jul 2002
time: 21:34
  Old Post 10-04-2004 17:26
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Cruise missiles are great for defending your homeland when your invading another continent. I keep a few around when at war with my mobile defense home brigade. Two of them will often sink a battle ship or more importantly those transports.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:34
  Old Post 10-04-2004 19:50
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I keep a few, mainly because Bombers have to rebase. It's usually not a problem though, because I station Bombers in all my border cities.

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:34
  Old Post 13-04-2004 02:46
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I like to use them as a defensive tool actually...ship sinkers and invader destroyers...

...mwahaha....ha...

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