23-03-2004 21:44									#1
	Cultural Conversions/Rebellions Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hey guys,

I just picked up Civ3 Conquests and am fooling around with it. One of the problems I've been having is that I like the idea of cultural conversions, but I absolutely hate having cities flip back to a country I just took them from - and simply erasing a number of my forces as it happens.

I'm currently playing at Monarch level as I get my skills back up to where they should be. I'm playing a relatively militaristic style but am not completely ignoring city improvements and culture. How can I win a war without having cities flip back with 8-10 of my war chariots/knights/cavalry going with them?

I'm also open to playing with the editor if there's a way to allow cultural conversions while minimizing the number of these rebellions. I guess I just want to be a warmonger without having to deal with the population's affinity for asymmetrical warfare reducing my aspirations from global hegemony to local despot.

	23-03-2004 21:54									#2
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It's all or nothing. You can turn off city flipping, but that goes for all culture flips, not just ones during war.

My advice, simplified:

1) Build some cultural improvements of your own, so that your culture isn't way lower than your opponents' culture. It may help to play a civ that gets building discounts on cultural buildings (religious and scientific civs)

2) To the extent that you can manage it, keep the bulk of your forces outside the enemy city, so that if it does flip, it only takes a couple of units with it. Then recapture it.

3) A major factor in city flips is the number of tiles within the city's full radius that are within the opponent's cultural borders. Push those borders back, and the flip risk declines. That means pressing the attack and taking the next line of cities.

4) Another major factor is the nationality of the citizenry of the town. If I do not expect to quickly wipe out the civ I'm fighting, I will starve captured towns down to size1, and then let the pop recharge. New citizens will be of your native civ.

Hope that helps.

-Arrian

	24-03-2004 00:02									#3
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5) Try to make the citizens of your new city happy, IE "we love the king day"

	24-03-2004 00:05									#4
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While you're starving the city down, build workers. They work half speed, but they're maintenance free. This stops working as soon as there is one of your citizens in the city.

	24-03-2004 00:14									#5
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Another option, though it has limited use is pop rush. If you're in a government that allows pop-rush, once all the resisters are gone, pop rush a culture improvement (temple or library). This also works best if you are religious or scientific since the buildings are cheaper. You'll use up the population you were trying to starve for a culture improvement that will help keep the city from flipping later on.

	24-03-2004 00:50									#6
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Oh, yeah, poprushing temples is a good one. I was thinking of cashrush governments, and left that out. It's a good way to kill to birds with one stone: you get rid of that nasty foreign population, and you get a cultural & happiness improvement. There is some associatied unhappiness, of course, but if you're starving the city all the way down anyway, that shouldn't be much of an issue.

Evil, ain't it?

-Arrian

	24-03-2004 00:55									#7
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I've been using that a bit in my game for AU502. I took several cities from the Iroquois after they attacked me. I ended up poprushing temples in several cities.

The unfortunate thing about that was that I was still researching monarchy and they attacked my gallic swordsman. Their mistake since I've been running over them fairly nicely, but they started my GA before the government switch. Oh well.

	24-03-2004 01:40									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It's all or nothing. You can turn off city flipping, but that goes for all culture flips, not just ones during war.

There's another way, at least if you have Conquests. In Scenario Properties, you can select to retain a city's culture when captured. That can give you a bit of a boundary, which is part of the equation in flipping. One of the calculations is the number of your city tiles that are within the cultural boundaries of another civ. It doesn't prevent flipping as such, but it does reduce the chances of it happening. Plus you keep any Temples etc. so the cultural boundaries can start growing right away.

	24-03-2004 01:47									#9
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Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of that. It would help, sure.

-Arrian

	24-03-2004 02:38									#10
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Culture flips, what culture flips?

	24-03-2004 03:25									#11
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quote: While you're starving the city down, build workers. They work half speed, but they're maintenance free. This stops working as soon as there is one of your citizens in the city.

Are you sure about this? IIRC I tested this a couple of times(long time ago) but can't remember what the result was, however I thought they weren't free.

	24-03-2004 03:44									#12
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quote: Originally posted by alva Are you sure about this? IIRC I tested this a couple of times(long time ago) but can't remember what the result was, however I thought they weren't free.

100% sure. It's become a staple of my middle to late game aftermath strategy. It can slip up on you, though, that one of your citizens appears in the city before the worker pops out.

	24-03-2004 05:30									#13
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The workers come out with their native civ and hence are slaves.

	24-03-2004 08:56									#14
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As a rule of thumb, for every enemy citizen in the city and for every city radius square under enemy control, you need 2 times that number of troops garrisoned to prevent it from flipping, at least for a few turns while you rush build a temple/library.
This is assuming no resistors, no riots and your overall civ culture is about equal to the enemy's overall culture.
I believe with this number of troops, the risks should be quite low and your troops should be reasonably safe, for the moment.

	24-03-2004 08:59									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Fistleaf As a rule of thumb, for every enemy citizen in the city and for every city radius square under enemy control, you need 2 times that number of troops garrisoned to prevent it from flipping, at least for a few turns while you rush build a temple/library.

In one of the Firaxis chats, Soren mentioned that it's more like 3 to 1.

	24-03-2004 09:22									#16
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According to the formula, its x2 if enemy has more culture in this city, always the case unless it was your city, x (ratio of total enemy culture versus your total culture), resistors count as double, x2 if rioting. Also, the nearer the city is to the enemy's capital, the faster it will flip.

	24-03-2004 17:33									#17
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Remember that it never flips the first turn. Often that turn is enough to get rid of resistance.

According to the formula, enough troops will completely remove the change of a flip.


What I dislike most with the current model is that your troops just disappear. FLipping itself seems logical enough, but your troops should have a change of survival (based on the number of troops, their strength, the size of the city, the tech level of their mother civ etc.)

Did some calculations in a PBEM once and found that after starving a city down to size 1, I still needed 10-15 units to completely prevent a flip. I don't see how a size 1 population could realistically hope to overwhelm a 10 unit strong state-of-the-art garrison.

	24-03-2004 21:31									#18
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Thanks guys, I'd imagine that between all of the suggestions here I'll at least get a leg up on the competition. Pop rushing and worker starving seem especially useful as does changing the rules to allow captured cities to retain their culture. I'm quite partial to communism in late-game war mongering as it is, this only solidifies that.

While I was waiting for your advice, I played a game yesterday on monarch with corruption and cultural conversions turned off and the AI aggressiveness turned down a notch. It had a really strange effect on the AI, it nearly played dead. On a huge map with 15 opponents, none of the opponents were remotely competitive with me (I had 30+ cities vs. 10-12 of the top AI civs without any wars stared). There was none of the normal aggressiveness that I had seen in previous games at monarch, even ones with the aggressiveness similarly toned down. The AI civs seemed to have no desire to explore beyond the continent we were on and as far as I could tell were not trading technologies at all as I was far ahead of all of them. Has anyone seen this before and know what brought it about so I can avoid doing it again? It's no fun playing against a gimped opponent.

	24-03-2004 22:05									#19
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I have not played with the agressive settings, but if the AI reaches its OCN, it will be loathed to expanded. I would not think 12 would be enough though.

	25-03-2004 09:44									#20
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I like the idea of flipping, whichever way it goes, but like everyone else I hate the fact that any troops in the flipped city simply vanish. I just lost a game of the Japanese conquest because a city that had my Daimyo in it flipped... now how harsh is that!

	25-03-2004 18:25									#21
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raze the cities, no chance for flip then

	26-03-2004 12:00									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Fistleaf As a rule of thumb, for every enemy citizen in the city and for every city radius square under enemy control, you need 2 times that number of troops garrisoned to prevent it from flipping,

Does the power/hit point level of the garrison have any effect on the formula? Would an army of elite Modern Armor give the same prevention as four conscript warriors?

	26-03-2004 13:19									#23
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Yep. You only need an A/D value other than zero.

Catapults won't work. I'm not sure about ships, but as a rule of thumb, any unit that can be used for military police will also help in preventing flips.

Don't use you modern armor army for this, use you old horseman armies instead.

	26-03-2004 13:59									#24
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I feel that there is critical flaw in C3C in relation to Culture. I just abandoned a Demi-god game, because there was no way I was even going to survive, with perhaps the exception of my capitol.

I was playing with eight Civs and four were on the same continent as I was. One of the Civs got off to such a huge lead that by 30 BC, they had GunPowder.

That factor by itself was not enough to get any of the other Civs to persue war against them. The killer was that they were also building most of the Wonders. Now their Culture was sky rocketting.

Due to this I had two of my own Cities flip. One was only six spaces from my Capital, had a temple, was a size four with eight units in it, one happy citizen and no unhappy citizens.

Their Culture was completely overbearing. I even saw another Civ lose a city to them due to a culture flip.

From what I can tell, the AI civs do not take another opponents culture into account when determining whether or not to wake war, or perhaps it does. It just determines that Civs with high Culture should be friends, rather than enimies. I don't know.

Any thoughts?

	27-03-2004 00:19									#25
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I think I will not play again with cultural convertions on.
Oh well.

	27-03-2004 03:12									#26
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latka just disable the culture victory and maybe one or two less civs for awhile.

	27-03-2004 08:20									#27
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The AI has a slightly more positive attitude (-1) towards Civs with dominant culture. This is mentioned in the AI attitude thread by Bamspeedy in CivFanatics.

	01-04-2004 19:11									#28
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Remember that it never flips the first turn. Often that turn is enough to get rid of resistance. According to the formula, enough troops will completely remove the change of a flip. What I dislike most with the current model is that your troops just disappear. FLipping itself seems logical enough, but your troops should have a change of survival (based on the number of troops, their strength, the size of the city, the tech level of their mother civ etc.) Did some calculations in a PBEM once and found that after starving a city down to size 1, I still needed 10-15 units to completely prevent a flip. I don't see how a size 1 population could realistically hope to overwhelm a 10 unit strong state-of-the-art garrison.

They poisened their drinks while your troops were celebrating at the local brothal.