24-03-2004 02:32									#1
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I was just wondering at what difficulty level the AI start cheating at and in which ways do they cheat to give them that edge ?

Oh and a little side note, is the fourth City graphic (of the huge city) actually used in Ancient and medieval times considering cities can only grow to a max population of 12 ? (due for the need of the Sanitation advance and sewers city improvement?)

	24-03-2004 03:19									#2
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What do you mean by cheat? The AI has one built in cheat, it has knowledge of the tiles.

Do you mean their bonus at the differnt levels, such as free support and units? Handicaps are not cheating. Players get them at the lowest levels.


In the middle ages a city of size 7 or greater could build Shakespears and then act as if it had a hospitol.

	24-03-2004 03:54									#3
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Regent is the break even level, ie it has no bonus'

Monarch and above have built in advantages, such as less food for pop growth needed, and less shields/unit, and less beakers per advance.

	24-03-2004 04:14									#4
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 What do you mean by cheat? The AI has one built in cheat, it has knowledge of the tiles.

A bit more I think.

(i) knows an entire map, including "invisible" resources
(ii) knows location of all your units
(iii) gets a possibility to build a unit on the same turn it captures a city (ie you take an AI city. AI counterattacks and retakes it. When it is your turn, AI would have a defensive unit there already, even if technically it should not be able to build it until the next turn)
(iv) gets a free defensive unit in culturally flepped/surrendered cities (human player does not) - maybe related to (iii)
(v) never asks another AI to remove troops from their territory

Probably there are more.

	24-03-2004 04:18									#5
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i & ii) exactly what vmxa said

iii) haven't seen that. Then again, it's not a situation I encounter often. I suspect, though, since the AI overloads on defensive units, that there's a more plausible explanation. Or maybe they just drafted one of their own citizens, which you could do, too, if you recaptured a city with your citizens in it.

iv) human player gets one, too

v) how is the AI opting for one of two choices given to both AI and humans a cheat?

	24-03-2004 04:27									#6
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(i) yes, just a bit more precise
(iv) no, at least not in the version I'm playing. Used to be the case in earlier versions, but now you never get free units
(v) not sure what you are saying here. Spend more than two turns in AIs territory (or move more than two units to AI territory) and you will be asked to remove troops or declare war (scouts/galleys are an exception). This does not apply to other AI's units, though. They can wander all they want in another AIs territory without military access and the victim of this transgression will never ask them to leave. Whether it is a cheat or just a feature is a matter of semantics, but AIs and a human player definitely do not play by the same rules here.

[Edit]
As for (iii)
If I rush or draft a unit on turn 100, my unit will appear in a city on turn 101, since production phase takes one turn. But AI can rush a unit on turn#100, and it will appear in the city on the same turn, before you get a chance to react.

Last edited by ErikM on 24-03-2004 at 04:32

	24-03-2004 04:30									#7
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AI may 'attack' cities while at peace with 'hidden nationality units'. Human players may not.

However, on the flip side...

The AI is generally handicaped by defunct 'routines' for to use Armies effectively or even at all. (some mods fix this )

The AI is braindead when it comes to being 'corralled' and generally does not do it.

The AI is lousy at using all siege. The human player generally is not.

I am sure there is more... someone will think of it.

	24-03-2004 04:33									#8
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thanks Krill you answered my main question
*next game will be on Regent level *

and thanks ErikM for the info
Im sure there are much more also

quote: What do you mean by cheat? The AI has one built in cheat, it has knowledge of the tiles. Do you mean their bonus at the differnt levels

No i mean cheats, the same sort of cheats the MANY AI systems use throughout the gaming world to make them more difficult to play against.

	24-03-2004 04:39									#9
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Oh goody. Do I win a prize?

ON TOPIC: Glad that I could help. If you want to have people give you advice on the game, why not play the AU game, AU 502. it has stock rules with it, so no problems their.

	24-03-2004 04:40									#10
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iii) It's been a long time since I drafted a unit, but I was pretty sure they appear the same turn they're drafted. I suppose you've ruled out the possibility of AI having a defensive unit in its stack, or otherwise in a position to enter the city that turn?

iv) Which version are you playing? I know C3C gives one, and haven't seen any changes to that in the patch readmes.

v) The human and AI do play by the same rules. When AI units cross into your territory, you have the choice of letting them wander or asking them to leave. The AI gets the same choice when units cross into its borders. If it never chooses the ask to leave option, it's not a cheat, simply a choice.

Last edited by Solomwi on 24-03-2004 at 04:59

	24-03-2004 05:16									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi iii) It's been a long time since I drafted a unit, but I was pretty sure they appear right away when you do. I suppose you've ruled out the possibility of AI having a defensive unit in its stack, or otherwise in a position to enter the city that turn?

I can find a save game to prove it if you insist. It happened like this: French sneak attack and take my undefended city with an archer. I know that they had nothing else since I can see in the vicinity of my city and there are no roads around yet. AI turn is over and now it is my turn. AI has an archer AND a spearman in the city. They could not have drafted it since it was way before nationalism. Could not transfer a unit, either. And if they rushed it, a spearman should not be there until the NEXT turn.

quote: iv) Which version are you playing? I know C3C gives one, and haven't seen any changes to that in the patch readmes.

C3C 1.15. If I get a city in a peace treaty or as a result of a culture flip, it comes empty, no military of any kind.

Maybe it is feature of the difficulty level, though? I have not played below Emperor for a long time, so maybe on lower difficulties you do get a freebie unit. AI certainly does get a free defensive unit in such circumstances, though.

quote: v) The human and AI do play by the same rules. When AI units cross into your territory, you have the choice of letting them wander or asking them to leave. The AI gets the same choice when units cross into its borders. If it never chooses the ask to leave option, it's not a cheat, simply a choice.

If a certain choice is never made, it is no longer a choice.
BTW, the AI algorithm for asking you to leave is very simple. If you violate AI's territory with 2 or more units at the same time, you will be asked to leave immediately. If you enter AI lands with a single unit
(i) on turn 1 AI will remind you that they are there, but will not ask for a withdrawal
(ii) turn 2, AI will keep quiet
(iii) turn 3, AI will demand withdrawal or war.
So there is a set of rules AI follows.
First 40 turns or so second rule is a bit relaxed.

Just try to cross AI borders with 17 units simultaneously and see what happens. You will be bumped immediately.

This does not apply to other AIs at all. It is like all AIs have a free MA with each other, although without a benefit of using roads.

	24-03-2004 05:29									#12
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Yes, I have seen suspicious defensive units in newly captured cities, but never have I seen one that I knew for sure should not have been there - more often it seems to appear the next turn, suggesting that a rush job has been done. Be careful, incidentally, to distinguish rushing the building of a unit, which would appear only on the next term, and drafting a unit, which appears immediately. Obviously, when it's spearmen we're talking about, it's not drafting, because you can't do that until Industrial times.

	24-03-2004 05:44									#13
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Difficulty level could well be the key on the two defender issues, in which case we're back to it not being a cheat, but a bonus, as stated early in the thread.

quote: If a certain choice is never made, it is no longer a choice.

Sure it is. It was just made by the programmers instead of the AI.

quote: BTW, the AI algorithm for asking you to leave is very simple. If you violate AI's territory with 2 or more units at the same time, you will be asked to leave immediately. If you enter AI lands with a single unit (i) on turn 1 AI will remind you that they are there, but will not ask for a withdrawal (ii) turn 2, AI will keep quiet (iii) turn 3, AI will demand withdrawal or war. So there is a set of rules AI follows. First 40 turns or so second rule is a bit relaxed. Just try to cross AI borders with 17 units simultaneously and see what happens. You will be bumped immediately.

Um, great, but who has argued that the AI will let the human wander around its territory? The same rules are in place, the AI just treats the human differently within those rules than it does other AI's.

quote: This does not apply to other AIs at all. It is like all AIs have a free MA with each other, although without a benefit of using roads.

Heck, up until C3C, the AI's even had the road usage, with their almost automatic ROP signings.

quote: French sneak attack and take my undefended city with an archer.

You let the FRENCH get the jump on you?!?

Sorry, couldn't resist that.

	24-03-2004 05:45									#14
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AFAIK you get a unit if you flip a city. I did it recently in C3C. All in all I have not seen anything mentioned beyond the point I made at the start. The talk about hidden national and leaving their land, is trivia (annoying though)l.

The point is the games does not engage in cheats, it does give bonuses as the higher levels.

	24-03-2004 05:54									#15
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Well it is a matter of semantics whether you call a certain type of behavior a cheat or a feature.

It is something to be aware of, though. If you, civ X, are at war against AI civ Y and there is a civ Z separating you from Y, you are by no means safe from invasion even if Z&Y do not have a MA. OTOH, you have to declare war or buy MA from Z if you want to invade Y.

quote: You let the FRENCH get the jump on you?!?

Yes, it was the day that will live in infamy
That was their last act of foreign agression, though

	24-03-2004 06:05									#16
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quote: Yes, it was the day that will live in infamy That was their last act of foreign agression, though

Good work, then.

The Russians did the same to me once after I had been nice enough to let their puny little backwater nation come back through my territory from barb hunting in the north, so I took Las Vegas back and annexed them. Russia will never survive another game I play.

	24-03-2004 06:22									#17
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I flipped a city at Demi-God recently (v1.15b) and got one free regular defender. Has always been so, to my knowledge.

The "leave or declare war" is not quite so straightforward. A poster named TheNiceOne did a study of it at CFC, and the "leave or declare war" option comes when a threshhold is met -- that threshhold takes into account the nature of the interloping unit(s) (military or not), the proximity to cities, and the length of stay. A settler-spear combo can move through territory for some time, particularly if it stays away from cities, without a "declare war" option. A scout can stay in territory for a long time, even close to a city. A stack of archers will generate a "leave or declare" quickly. His tests showed that the threshhold test is the same for human or AI.

The AI does get the opportunity to rush a unit in the "same turn" due to the way turns work. Turns move through four phases: human production; AI production; human unit move; AI unit move. In this context, the AI takes a human city (or flips it), and rushes a unit build. After the AI is done moving units, the turn cycles through the human production phase and then the AI production phase -- the rushed unit is produced during the AI production phase. Only then does the human get to move units (and try to retake the city) -- lo and behold, the AI's rushed defender is already in place. The human doesn't get this opportunity because the AI always moves last -- the human can take a city and rush a unit, but the rushed unit isn't completed until the next human production phase, which comes after the AI gets to move units (and may have tried to retake the city).

BTW, there is a human advantage to the turn system, too. Since the human production always precedes the AI production, any time you get to "1 turn" on a wonder and then get to move your units (without an AI wonder pop-up intervening), you know the wonder is yours without question. This could have pretty drastic consequences particularly in the context of great leaders (less so with SGLS in C3C). If you and the AI each get an SGL on the same turn and each use it to rush the same wonder, you get the wonder and the AI gets a very expensive city improvement. In fact, any time the human gets an SGL he/she is assured of building the wonder of his choice -- human production always precedes AI production.

I'm not sure about the AI never asking another to remove its troops. I thought that it did occur.

Catt

	24-03-2004 06:30									#18
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Very nice explanation Catt

I *almost* certain that I did not get a defensive unit on Deity when an enemy city flipped to me, but maybe I was wrong. Or maybe it is something like you only get a freebie if AI has at least one unit in the city.

Culture flips are so rare on Demi+ though that this point is rather academic. Rather, you have to worry that your own cities do not flip

	24-03-2004 07:01									#19
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM Culture flips are so rare on Demi+ though that this point is rather academic. Rather, you have to worry that your own cities do not flip

Yup (my flip occured with an AI city recently conquered by a distant civ, shortly after I relocated my palace very near the city -- can't remember more than one or two other flips in my favor in the last several months)

Catt

	24-03-2004 07:01									#20
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Leave it to Catt to step in as the voice of authority and reason.

On the asking to leave bit, I was arguing from the premise that it was a developer-documented aspect of the game that AI would not ask another AI to leave, since my first reaction was "Well, how would we know?". Granted we'd know that the AI does, at times, allow movement through its territory to other AI's, but not enough to say always and never. Catt, now that you've cast a bit of doubt on that, I'm curious.

	24-03-2004 07:14									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi On the asking to leave bit, I was arguing from the premise that it was a developer-documented aspect of the game that AI would not ask another AI to leave, since my first reaction was "Well, how would we know?". Granted we'd know that the AI does, at times, allow movement through its territory to other AI's, but not enough to say always and never. Catt, now that you've cast a bit of doubt on that, I'm curious.

I haven't reviewed TheNiceOne's thread, but I'm pretty sure it didn't address whether AIs make "leave" demands on other AIs -- what it did address was that the "point system" for triggering the "leave or declare" threat was the same whether the interloper was AI or human (i.e., a human settler-spear combo could move through AI territory in the same manner as an AI combo could through human territory). Don't recall any developer statements on the issue.

It's also been awhile since I ran a debug game (which would show AI units being expelled). Many human expulsions happen in the early game when we're unlikely to have views around AI borders to see AI-AI expulsions. Many others occur when, as ErikM posted, Civ X moves through Civ Y's territory to attack Civ Z. AI's very often have RoPs with each other, so no "leave or declare" occurs. But I don't doubt (heck, I just witnessed it in my last game) that an AI will move numerous military units through another AI's territory without an RoP to attack another civ. My own doubt about "never" arises because perhaps the AI "trespassed-upon" won't ever ask a stronger AI foe to leave or declare, knowing that the foe will declare (but might do so when it knows the other AI will leave, and we just never see it happen). I just know that there are times when an AI will move large numbers of units through another AI's territory without an RoP, and I've never been successful in doing the same thing.

Catt

	24-03-2004 07:20									#22
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I've been on the receiving end of Civ Z's dribble of units attempting to impersonate an invasion force before, so please don't think I was denying that the AI will let other AI through its territory without an ROP. Until I read Erik's post, I was under the same impression, that the AI just deferred to stronger AI's and asked weaker AI's to leave, but decided to give the benefit of the doubt in case there had been a developer statement.

	24-03-2004 07:59									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi I've been on the receiving end of Civ Z's dribble of units attempting to impersonate an invasion force before, so please don't think I was denying that the AI will let other AI through its territory without an ROP.

I didn't think that -- ErikM's post just highlighted for me that I don't have any clear memory of evidence of an AI-AI expulsion, while I do have a clear memory of a failure to expel in circumstances that would clearly trigger the "leave or declare" option between AI civs. The option could still be there, of course, and weak AIs aren't availing themselves of it or the option triggers a war declaration without us knowing of the reason why or the AIs really won't use the option on other AIs.

Catt

	24-03-2004 12:06									#24
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Right after I left my last post on this thread, I flipped a city and got a spear. So that is what I had always seen. Flips are very rare in my games for either side.

	24-03-2004 12:20									#25
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Flips you get the unit.

The change was in gifted cities you don't get a unit, while IIRC the AI does (could be the production cycle thing though).

	24-03-2004 15:32									#26
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I feel the AI should be more "protective" of its territory, after all another civ can just march in saying we're just passing through, or else... and then charge right into the capital or whatever. of course the AI isnt smart enough to do that, but I think the AI would be better if it "played" like if it was playing against an "intelligent" opponent.

	24-03-2004 22:28									#27
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I don't see the problem with the AI letting units pass through. I do it all the time. If you are playing at a level where the AI has many free units, you do not demand they leave, when you are sure they are after someone else.

You can end up with the AI fighting on your land. It is not pleasant, but you have no real choice. The AI should be able to behave that way and it does at times.