10-05-2000 09:02									#1
	Lancer on Banning - What Comes Around... Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

...goes around.

I ban Apolyton for three days.

Three days ago I was banned for acting on principle. I posted in a thread that it was a banning offense to post in so I do not protest my banning. I knew what I was doing. What I was doing was my protest. People were banned for making the mistake of posting to the title of 'The Thread'. I've done that myself and I admit it's a dumb thing to do, but a banning offense? It seemed nasty, or as Ming said, stubborn. In Mings closing post he said that both sides were being stubborn, and then he closed a thread that he said would not be closed. Admitting he was being stubborn and then closing the thread he said he would not close appeared to me to be an admittion he was mistaken in the first place. Which this policy was,

banning a person for posting to a title is not acceptable to me. So as I said, I posted on principle.

MarkG, in a way, admitted there was a problem by banning "the first five to post" for only one day. That's like saying posting to a title is a one day banning offense...that's not acceptable either. It's petty and I'm here to enjoy, not get burried in petty regulations.

Do you notice I keep saying that? If something isn't acceptable to someone who really enjoys the company of his friends, including Ming btw, exactly what can he do? This is a business, all this revolution crap is meaningless, except that it provides hits for the site. However it is a business, and I can treat it as it treats me, because I've got more power than a citizen that can revolt but not leave. I can leave, and I will, and to my friends (if you are given the chance to read this) I say,

I'm banning Apolyton, if I'm allowed I'll be back in three days.

May God bless and keep you well.

	10-05-2000 09:19									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Have a nice break Lancer. Cya when you get back in 3 days, we'll be here.

John-SJ

	10-05-2000 09:21									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Is this the first incident of self-banning on apolyton ?

	10-05-2000 09:24									#4
	Got spare money?

No... Many people have requested to be restricted for personal reasons... like they are addicted to this site and need to stay away for awhile to get something done.

And Lancer, enjoy your self imposed vacation.
Like everybody else, you are welcome to stay or leave as you wish. I will agree to disagree on how you interpret things.

	10-05-2000 09:42									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

first of all, Ming saying both were stubborn was his personal opinion on the matter

My opinion is that both he and I were optimistic on the level of maturity of some people, and of the kind of respect of some other people towards the moderator of this forum

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>I've done that myself and I admit it's a dumb thing to do, but a banning offense?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>yes, I think that after the ban most people will remember to read more carefully the announcements

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Which this policy was, banning a person for posting to a title is not acceptable to me.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>let's be specific. the rule was concerning the specific thread.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>MarkG, in a way, admitted there was a problem by banning "the first five to post" for only one day.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>the first five people were banned by ming, and was an extra warning over the first one. it was one day, just in case someone didnt think he was actually talking serious

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>It's petty and I'm here to enjoy, not get burried in petty regulations.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>I dont think you're so stupid not to be able to follow the rules here. it's not like we have tons of them...
nor was it hard for you to understand the reason behind this rule

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>This is a business
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>this is a fansite, run by fans who get small to zero money for providing a service to the community(and do something they enjoy)

but in the end, I think it is hard for you to understand the simple rules we have here. you're posting this in the OT when you should be posting in the apolyton forum.
moving to apolyton then...

	10-05-2000 09:57									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

maybe so, but the forum needed a little excitement, and it got some. And the revolution didn't hurt anyone.

	09-05-2000 22:00									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

IMHO, it is MarkG and Ming the Merciless who were immature, and the banned posters who were being optimistic about moderators acting like adults.

The posters were making a statement against a rule they perceived to be stupid.

Moderators have dictatorial authority to close any thread. Closing the thread (w/o making a new one) would have been very easy and entirely appropriate.

Banning the posters was vindictive and immature. "I draw this line, and I dare you to step over it!" That the whole thing got carried away with DLs was pretty predictable.

I think both Ming and MarkG do a very good job. I think they messed up this time. We all mess up. I don't expect them to "admit" to anything, and yet Ming already has "confessed" to stuborness, but I hope they learn from it.

--------------------------------
"I fight authority, authority always wins."

	09-05-2000 22:50									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Markos, you scare me !

I start to wonder if you take yourself serious ? I hope you're writing those scary lines with a grin on your face and not with anger in your heart.

lines like: "My opinion is that both he and I were optimistic on the level of maturity of some people"
and: "I dont think you're so stupid not to be able to follow the rules here. it's not like we have tons of them..."

are really not applicable for this situation ! We're not talking like 100 people revolting against this site (eventhough Ming tries to make it look like) but we're talking about a case were an ad hoc rule was made that was impossible to maintain and in the eyes of most people a silly one and very overdone.

A very minor thingy. Some people just showed their disrespect for that rule, and later much more people showed their disrespect for the punishments that were given for breaking such a small silly minor not important weird rule.

Something very small became big because of the way the administrators of this site (I believe more and more that this situation went wrong becuase you, Markos, overreacted while Ming wanted to settle it down again) completely reacted wrong on this matter.

The people that posted made a small mistake, and broke a small rule indeed. They're wrong on that. You're wrong for overreacting.

And you're still overreacting like an nuclear bomb was almost trowed at your house.

Relax man !
Please !
Or reply and tell me you were joking.
Dang it, I almost lose my blind faith in Markos The Allknowing Master of Apolyton

CyberShy

	09-05-2000 22:54									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

You are welcome to your opinion.

But a question... Don't you think the people that posted to that thread were a little vindictive and immature. You say they were protesting a stupid rule. But, do you break every stupid rule you see. Do you always do things people tell you not do? And do you expect to get away unpunished? Try that in the real world, and you will get punished. Whether the rule was stupid or not will remain debatable. But it was against the rules. You have the right to break any rule you want, but you better be ready to serve the punishment that comes with breaking it. I call that accepting reponsiblities for ones actions.



------------------
Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Ming (edited May 09, 2000).]</font>

	10-05-2000 00:12									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Wasn't it you Ming that said "rules are made for breaking" in an ICQ conversation with me? So which rules are made for breaking? Certain rules? Come on, which one?

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Is this the first incident of self-banning on apolyton?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

No, I self banned myself for a few days because of this incident (3 days I think), and I did it before because of the YYYH & Spink bit.

	10-05-2000 00:31									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well IS, I did say that. And I believe it too. But, when I break rules, I accept responsibity for any punishment that goes along with my actions.
I constantly ignore the speeding limits in this country when I drive. And, when I get caught, I'm very polite to the police officer (he is only doing his job), and I accept my punishment. I don't complain or whine about it, because I know I was breaking a rule/law.

When I enter somebodies home, I like to know what the house rules are. I would never want to offend my host, even accidentally. Some people have some really silly rules in their homes... but I respect whatever those rules are, because I am a guest
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Ming (edited May 09, 2000).]</font>

	10-05-2000 00:45									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>But, do you break every stupid rule you see. Do you always do things people tell you not do? And do you expect to get away unpunished? Try that in the real world, and you will get punished.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

An interesting question. No, I don't break every stupid rule I see, but I do break some of them; I'm sure you do too, especially those that you're unaware of. The legal code here in the U.S. is chock full of stupid rules that people break every day--they just aren't enforced. How did these laws come to be ignored?

There is a huge, worthwhile debate hiding in this, but my time is short so I'll just say this: in breaking stupid rules, you demonstrate their stupidity to those in power and to the public in general. This is a good thing, because it prompts those in power to recind bad rules and create better ones.

In respect to Lancer's self-imposed banning, I respect and support it, but will not follow, as I would prefer to discuss this topic while it's still fresh.

	10-05-2000 01:09									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Cyber...

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>(snip)...an ad hoc rule was made that was impossible to maintain and in the eyes of most people a silly one and very overdone.

A very minor thingy. Some people just showed their disrespect for that rule, and later much more people showed their disrespect for the punishments that were given for breaking such a small silly minor not important weird rule.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

The first few people posting there (Karsten c.s.) clearly did it for fun and were well aware of the consequences. IMO Ming reacted very well to it, banning them till after his next day afternoon nap. I was really LMAO and was going to say something about afternoon naps. Only when I scrolled further thru the thread I saw the usual spammers, obviously there to make trouble and I decided not to post. And then, to my surprise there were a lot of what I consider serious posters (including you and Lancer) protesting for the right of people to **** things up? Now I agree with you that the admins/mods didn't handle things too clever but I guess they were caught by surprise. If I was in their shoes I would be too and there definitely would be some permanent bans for the ones who deliberately tried to mess up my site just for the fun of it.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Huey (edited May 09, 2000).]</font>

	10-05-2000 01:21									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

permanents bans? are you joking?
even a day's ban is a crime against humanity!

	10-05-2000 01:36									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That's why it's a good thing this is your site and not mine

	10-05-2000 02:34									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

yeah, it's so much better being a poster
I really found out today at another forum...

	10-05-2000 03:10									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by MarkG on 05-09-2000 12:42 PM</font>


My opinion is that both he and I were optimistic on the level of maturity of some people


<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Really? On the OT?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha he he he he he he ho ho ho ho

	10-05-2000 03:40									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Never compromise what you believe.

	10-05-2000 03:43									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ming,

Years ago I used to drive my bike very often (I got a car now, so I hardly use my bike anymore) and I never got light on it. (light on bikes is a pain ! it works 2 days, and then just stops working)

We dutch are supposed to have light on our bikes. I've been catched without light very often. Mostly the police dudes said "This is a warning, next time...." you know ?

Sometimes there are rules, but they're never enforced. Sometimes such a status quo is needed. It's like drugs here in the netherlands. They are officially forbidden ! But no-one will ever be punished for using it ! It's impossible to keep on forbidding it since just that much people use drugs, but ethics say we have to forbid it so we can keep on fighting the big guys in the drugs world.

Hell, you keep talking about us that we should accept our punishment. I did ! I hoped in advance you would turn your mind, but I accepted it. That I start a discussion about it doesn't mean I don't accept it. I DID sin against the rule. No discussion about that. And for that reason I DID DESERVE that punishment. No discussion about that.

But deserving something and getting something = 2. I deserve the "Apolyton Shy dude of the Month" title but never got it you see !?

Now plz free ghen.
He's a good guy and just reacted to the situation. Now he's banned 3 weeks or something for something that started as silly as for everyone.

I can't judge about the others, but I know about my fellow enemy atheist ghen that he's a good guy.

I hope you guys will see that merci isn't showing of weakness but that it's showing how strong you are ! Forget about the american "he who has the power should use it" culture and use the more civilized european culture rule: "the dude with most power is the one that 's most relaxed on the rule"

CyberShy

	10-05-2000 03:49									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

People that just posted in the thread go off easy. Heck the first few people got a day.
But the people that created double log ons did so with a sole intent of disrupting this site. People were ICQing each other, passing on information on "OPEN LOG ONS"
The intent was there!
That is a serious thing to the people that own this site. The offenders knew that double log ons, and disrupting this site was WRONG.

I have no pity for them. For those that just posted in the thread... now that's a different story.

	10-05-2000 04:01									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ok, that's true.

One day isn't that bad indeed.
And those that really tried to turn the situation into a revolution (cute word for this case) are evil indeed, but free ghen !

He didn't try to revolt, he just wanted to voice his opinion, and used dl for that. He didn't even try to make those dl's hidden or something. He did exactly what I was intended to do, but decided to do not.

Change Ming the Merciless into Ming the Mercifull and earn my respect ! (I wonder if that would be the final thing you wanted my respect hey, I have to try SOMETHING don't I ?)

	10-05-2000 06:31									#22
	Tired of ads?

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by CyberShy on 05-09-2000 07:01 PM</font>
And those that really tried to turn the situation into a revolution (cute word for this case) are evil indeed, but free ghen !

<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Hey HEY!

The word "revolution" is getting a bad reputation around here. I'm a revolutinary here, but I don't want to see mass carnage and the mods thrown out of power, replaced by YYYH, Spink, Rainbow, or anyone else.

HOWEVER, I would like to see a bit more maturity on both sides. And I'm not talking about posts. I'm talking about admiting whent things have gotten out of hand and doing something about it. That thread should have been CLOSED after those first 5 were banned, but instead it was left open for 67 replies. It was an obvious trap. The mods should have had the maturity to close the thing! The message had definitly gotten across.

And posters... posting in the forbidden thread for a cause is one thing, but creating DLs and going on a rampage in retaliation for the ban you KNEW was coming is something else!

------------------
The poster with the title formerly known as Prince.

Banned on Black Saturday in the name of those who went before him.

	10-05-2000 06:53									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

:sigh:
This whole affair is so silly I don’t know whether to laugh or cry...

	10-05-2000 11:03									#24
	Support Apolyton

Lancer posted the following on ACOL
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Well, I just banned Apolyton for three days...,

As usual when banned and lacking in maturity the banned hurled an insult...MarkG this time... The thread is in the Apolyton Forum 'Lancer on Banning - What Comes Around...' and although when I posted in 'The Thread' I was respectful, and although when I returned from my ban, I banned Apolyton in a respectful manner...I wasn't dealt with respectfully. Unfortunate, but from what I've seen at Apolyton over the last few days, not entirely unexpected.
Perhaps Mark has 'Administated' his offensive remarks by now, but if you check all my dealings with the Admins or Mods they are very respectful throughout this whole mess.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Lancer, calling apolyton a business is not very respectfull, when it is not. You can not make characterizations like this when you dont know the three things related to a business: how much we have worked, for how long, and how much we have earned. You only know one thing: how good or bad our (free) service is.

	10-05-2000 11:23									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by CyberShy on 05-09-2000 06:43 PM</font>
Now plz free ghen.
He's a good guy and just reacted to the situation.
...
I can't judge about the others, but I know about my fellow enemy atheist ghen that he's a good guy.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>he made a third dl on sunday after I had announced the penalties to post "hey mark, you missed one my logins"
what did you expect me to do after that, and what kind of precedent would I give if I let it be?

	10-05-2000 11:41									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by CyberShy on 05-09-2000 01:50 PM</font>
lines like: "My opinion is that both he and I were optimistic on the level of maturity of some people"
and: "I dont think you're so stupid not to be able to follow the rules here. it's not like we have tons of them..."

are really not applicable for this situation!
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>line 1: lots of other people(aming them some who posted on the thread) characterized their act as stupid, dumb, etc. immaturity, especially when we're talking about a thread like that, is not far away
line 2: I mean it. Lancer has proven all this time not to be so stupid not to be able to understand the simple, common logic, rules that we have here
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>that was impossible to maintain
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>not impossible at all. it was maintained for 40 logins. point proven, thread closed...
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>and in the eyes of most people a silly one and very overdone.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>did you make a count on that, to say "most"?
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>A very minor thingy. Some people just showed their disrespect for that rule
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>actually, they just wanted to test the limit. we made the error to give them a new toy to play...
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>and later much more people showed their disrespect for the punishments that were given for breaking such a small silly minor not important weird rule.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>and from that kinf of people I expected to follow one of the basic rules of forums, dear cybershy: POST IN THE RIGHT PLACE

	10-05-2000 17:39									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have pretty much backed Ming and the administration on most of the little Apolyton crisis's in the past, but this one is just beyond belief.

On my browser, the last line that shows up without scrolling is "This thread is meant only to point out this new rule." That "sounds" like the end of a post. The line "ANYBODY THAT POSTS TO THIS THREAD wanting to discuss this issue (or just posting their normal spam) will get a vacation" is off of the bottom of the screen.

I was out racing Saturday and noticed the thread that night when I was checking e-mail. I already knew about the 150 limit, so I didn't bother to read the whole thing. I hadn't noticed the do not post here line.

My point here is that (IMHO) this was a poorly designed post. The "killer" point, that posting in the thread earns a vacation, was not immediately obvious to someone opening the thread. So a casual reader could easily miss that point. Especially if intending to post on the second page. The restriction on posting in the thread should have been the first line in the thread.

That said, most of the people who did post were fully aware of the edict not to post in the thread. Those using double logins to post were way out of line. However, I feel that the "damage" could have been reduced by simply locking the thread when it became obvious that is was acting as a magnet for "misbehavior". IMHO, that is what Ming should have done rather than setting up a situation that resulted in the banning of almost 30 people.

This whole issue is an incredibly silly thing to cause so much upset (on both sides of the "issue". But, then again, I always have been attracted to Apolyton mainly for the comic value. I haven't been disappointed yet!

	10-05-2000 17:45									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Cybershy, thanks for sticking up for me and all, but I deserve what I get At first, I posted in 'that thread' because of the principle. But Ming somewhat backed down so I'm happy No, I made DL's to have fun.. Hope you enjoyed them
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
..
.
..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Hey, Just out of curiosity.. Who banned these individuals?

ghen's philosophical DL
spoon made of silver
ghen's 3rd DL
BrettH

We know Ming got my 5th one, but what about the others? spoon was made at work, but with ghen in the email addy (oops) so I think Markos got to that one..
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by ghen's 5th DL (edited May 10, 2000).]</font>

	10-05-2000 17:57									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sigh... DL disabled...

Come on Ghen... Haven't you had enough fun yet with DL's

And thanks for at least making them easy to spot...

	10-05-2000 18:28									#30
	Remove this text

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Lancer has proven all this time not to be so stupid not to be able to understand the simple, common logic, rules that we have here

not impossible at all. it was maintained for 40 logins. point proven, thread closed...
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Oh, where to begin? Markos, what are you trying to prove here? That your neck is stiffer than everyone else's? Yes, Lancer is not too stupid to understand the rules, that was never the point! The point was, the rule was not logical to begin with. It was as if the speed limit of a stretch of highway suddenly dropped by thirty mph. People are used to posting on anything that hits OT, and such a rule out of the blue could certainly be expected to be missed by some, ignored by others, and protested by still others. What Lancer, myself, and certain others did was in response to the treatment of those who honestly missed it, because there was no way to expect it.

As for your second comment, all that proves is that you're willing to support unlogical, nonsensical rules to a unjust extent. That is a hallmark of tyranny.