24-03-2004 08:00									#1
	LL: Invasion Possibilities Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The chatlog speaks for itself. I wanted to make sure this got posted in some form and wasn't lost to the admin's log.

quote: [20:01] [UnOrthOdOx] So... [20:01] [UnOrthOdOx] Is it too early to be planning an offensive against LL? [20:02] [Kloreep] Depends on what kind of offensive, I guess [20:02] [Kloreep] Are you thinking Riders, or pre-Riders? [20:02] [UnOrthOdOx] Depends. [20:02] [UnOrthOdOx] How soon could you get me 5 galleys? [20:03] [UnOrthOdOx] Also depends on MAST. [20:03] [Kloreep] Chop Suey is the galley-building center [20:03] [Kloreep] I forget where it is in its cycle, but it could do 5 galleys in 15 turns [20:03] [Kloreep] And we could add in some regular galleys from other coastal cities if absolutely necessary [20:03] [Kloreep] *5 galleys in 15 turns tops; up to 2 turns can be taken off that if it's in the middle of its production [20:04] [UnOrthOdOx] I'm looking at this... [20:04] [UnOrthOdOx] We could land 10 Med inf right outside salma [20:04] [UnOrthOdOx] If combined with a proper offensive from MAST, it would divert enough attention to allow us to take that choke and then wear down the other cities on this side. [20:05] [Kloreep] Interesting [20:05] [Kloreep] So basically we turn Perla agaist them [20:05] [Kloreep] I like [20:05] [Kloreep] But 10 med inf can't defend very well [20:05] [Kloreep] We'd need room for at least some pikes [20:05] [UnOrthOdOx] Well, we're 20 turns out? [20:06] [UnOrthOdOx] How many turns to return our 2? galleys. [20:06] [Kloreep] Is it 5 turns travel time? [20:06] [UnOrthOdOx] Well, positioning and all, just rough guess. [20:06] [UnOrthOdOx] 20 turns would be a good target to get MAST ready too. [20:06] [Kloreep] One of those galleys might be more valuable where it is by the other continent if there are any spots we want to try suiciding somewhere from the other continent [20:06] [Kloreep] The other is currently beside the middle of the LL snake, watching for LL galleys [20:07] [UnOrthOdOx] bah. I'ld rather take land with it than seek land. [20:07] [Kloreep] That second one could be retrieved, though we might lose advance warning of a similiar maneuver from LL [20:07] [Kloreep] Also, how many acceptable landing points are there? [20:07] [Kloreep] We'd need to hit fast once they see us, with slow-moving MIs [20:07] [Kloreep] And landing tiles are all too blockable [20:07] * Sharpe has joined #Tabemono [20:07] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Sharpe [20:07] [Sharpe] Hi! [20:08] [Kloreep] Hi [20:08] [UnOrthOdOx] If done right, they won't know to block it. [20:08] [Sharpe] What's up? [20:08] [Kloreep] We're discussing a possible MI strike on LL [20:08] [UnOrthOdOx] 1 ideal landing tile [20:08] [Kloreep] UnO: It does sound good if they don't see us coming [20:08] [UnOrthOdOx] 4 possible [20:08] [Sharpe] should we have an ally for this strike? [20:08] [Kloreep] But is there really a corridor they can't see with their culture? [20:08] [Kloreep] Sharpe: UnO's thinking MAST [20:09] [UnOrthOdOx] yes Sharpe, this would be a joint effort. [20:09] [UnOrthOdOx] Us expanding MAST to the choke. [20:09] [UnOrthOdOx] Gotta do allot of diplomacy to make it work. [20:09] [Sharpe] hmm personally I wonder whether MAST is eyeing Sunshine and becoming more friendly with LL [20:09] [Kloreep] This would be great if we can pull it off [20:09] [Kloreep] I would love to have Perla [20:10] [Sharpe] I could even live with the spices and horse from LL's tail [20:10] [Kloreep] However, could we realistically hold Perla once we take it? [20:10] [Kloreep] Once they realize we aren't moving past Perla, I think they'll assume it's a prelude to a Rider invasion [20:10] [Sharpe] they HAVE to have a lot of units in Perla - wonder if flanking it is an option? [20:10] [Kloreep] And go all out against Perla so that they have their chokepoint back before we get three move units in to more open terrain [20:11] [Kloreep] Sharpe has a point [20:11] [Kloreep] What about using horses to try to get something else? [20:11] [Kloreep] I'm probably dreaming, but razing Monte de Venus would be great [20:11] [Kloreep] We could throw their RCP out the window [20:11] [Sharpe] hmm, I suspect that MAST would want Monte for its iron though [20:12] [Kloreep] It would be hard to hold Monte, culturally if nothing else [20:12] [Kloreep] And no way to get the iron out [20:12] [Kloreep] I'm talking a damaging raid only, not actually trying to hold it [20:12] [Kloreep] In the case of MdV [20:12] [Sharpe] btw is there any person that we would want from the Monkey team to join us (when they fall?) [20:12] [Kloreep] Perla we would pretty much have to try to hold [20:13] [Kloreep] I'd say any of them that want to join are welcome [20:13] [Kloreep] With the exception of panag, but I don't think he's on Monkey [20:13] [Sharpe] yeah, no panag! (have a nice day) [20:14] [Sharpe] do you think we can get SS neutrality and/or the other continent's non-involvement? [20:14] [Kloreep] I doubt the other continent will be done with Monkey in 20 turns [20:14] [Kloreep] Not enough that we couldn't hurt them with some support for Monkey; specifically Feud for MIs [20:14] [UnOrthOdOx] Chop Suey will be at it's start. [20:15] [Kloreep] So I think the other continent would remain neutral [20:15] [Kloreep] SS, though... [20:15] [Kloreep] If told we wouldn't go past Perla they might sit by [20:15] [Kloreep] But I don't think they'd trust us to stay at Perla once we get Rider's [20:16] [Kloreep] BTW, do either of you object to posting this chat? [20:16] [UnOrthOdOx] Depending on how smart LL is being, we could be able to threaten either Urania or Marina by going around the top of that other little isle [20:16] [Sharpe] no, go ahead [20:16] [Sharpe] in the private forum of course [20:16] [UnOrthOdOx] We should scout that though [20:16] [Sharpe] any idea what the new timing for Republic is? [20:16] [Kloreep] New timing? [20:17] [Sharpe] originally we were planning on doing a revolution in 4 turns - but I doubt we should now [20:17] [Sharpe] not with that large negative gpt we would get [20:17] [Kloreep] Ah, because of the commerce loss [20:17] [UnOrthOdOx] You know....if they arent watching around that other isle, we could land 2 turns from their capitol. [20:18] [Sharpe] btw a mktplace in Buffet and another in Chop Suey plus adding a worker each to Buffet and EggRoll would reduce us from -18gpt to -6gpt [20:21] [Kloreep] Hmm [20:21] [Kloreep] I'm definitely for a market in Buffet [20:21] [UnOrthOdOx] It's already building one. [20:21] [Kloreep] Chop Suey needs one too eventually, but as the sole source of galleys may need to wait [20:21] [Kloreep] Heh [20:21] [UnOrthOdOx] And will be size 8 when it's done. [20:21] [Kloreep] Shows how much I've gotten back in to domestics since I got back from vacation [20:21] [UnOrthOdOx] 8 turns from last save. [20:22] [UnOrthOdOx] God damned doughnut. [20:22] [UnOrthOdOx] Can't believe our land. [20:22] [Sharpe] yeah re donut [20:22] [UnOrthOdOx] Damn PTWDG I get screwed by not having Iron, now I get screwed with a damn Doughnut. [20:22] [Sharpe] Python, Izzardia and LL got a near perfect "circle" to use re corruption [20:23] [Sharpe] too bad this isn't SMAC -we could take care of that [20:23] [Sharpe] plus raise a landbridge to LL [20:23] [Kloreep] How possible do you guys think conquering SS is ? [20:23] [UnOrthOdOx] Now or later? [20:23] [Kloreep] I'm just wondering if we think we'll ever want to use their land [20:24] [Sharpe] hmm, not likely now - later it will be possible , though they will have a lot of defensive units [20:24] [Kloreep] If we know we're going to be expanding elsewhere, that gives us north-south boundaries to work with on building a FP [20:24] [UnOrthOdOx] I spit on defensive units. [20:24] [Kloreep] UnO: But would you attack a mass of them? [20:25] [Sharpe] when I was thinking about who to attack , it came down to - what civ has something that we want - and LL has spices, another horse and a monopoly on dyes [20:25] [UnOrthOdOx] Kloreep...Defenders have a move of 1... [20:25] [UnOrthOdOx] We have a 3 mover comming up, negating any advantage roads give their 3 movers, plus we pillage. [20:25] [Sharpe] versus SS's large amount of land, iron and horse deposits [20:26] [UnOrthOdOx] I therefore spit on defenders. [20:26] [UnOrthOdOx] It's knights that frighten me. [20:26] [Kloreep] Yes, Knights are much better [20:26] [Sharpe] yeah , that should be coming soon from LL now that they can link up their horse [20:27] [Kloreep] Speaking of which... perhaps a much simpler attack is in order: take away that horse so they can't get Knights [20:28] [UnOrthOdOx] I wouldn't take SS till calvs and then only if MAST would at least keep out of it. [20:28] [Sharpe] I doubt we can prevent them from getting horses, SS would simply trade them horses [20:28] [UnOrthOdOx] LL right now, I just want to push back. [20:28] [UnOrthOdOx] If they send their entire army at us at the choke, THEN I would consider smashing them. [20:29] [UnOrthOdOx] I think if we successfully landed, though, they would send it all against THAT stack first. [20:30] [UnOrthOdOx] I wouldn't be averse to having MAST even "side" with LL and declare war on us, make a big deal of it...only to stab LL in the back. [20:30] [UnOrthOdOx] Something MAST might enjoy actually. [20:31] [Sharpe] we couldn't trust MAST completely to still support us though by doing that [20:31] [Kloreep] You can never really trust anyone [20:31] [Sharpe] err yeah, but remember MAST's theme [20:31] [Kloreep] It's just a question of degree [20:32] [UnOrthOdOx] Kloreep...I don't trust YOU not to turn against the team, let alone another team. [20:32] [Sharpe] yeah, well - I think that the other continent alliance is friendly with us now - more because they are worried about being attacking by someone with iron on our continent [20:32] [UnOrthOdOx] I came from GoW remember? [20:33] [UnOrthOdOx] MZ wasn't the only one with "evil Plan"s [20:33] [Kloreep] Hehe [20:33] [Sharpe] but when they get saltpeter and especially after Cavalry , they will likely be looking to expand to our continent [20:33] [Kloreep] Now that is far more paranoid than me, UnO [20:33] [Kloreep] [20:34] [UnOrthOdOx] Sharpe, I plan on that. [20:34] [UnOrthOdOx] We first, Strengthen MAST, push LL back to the choke. [20:34] [UnOrthOdOx] Gifting much of those LL cities to MAST. [20:35] [UnOrthOdOx] This makes it not a war for our own gain, major PR move to keep SS off balance. [20:35] [UnOrthOdOx] Now, with Calvs, we take SS while MAST assists and holds off LL. [20:35] [Sharpe] that might get SS suspicious and get them to ally with LL though [20:35] [Kloreep] I wouldn't write off SS [20:35] [Kloreep] There may be enough land to keep them and MAST happy [20:36] [UnOrthOdOx] We gotta get them on board. A major alliance to help out the one team screwed by the map. [20:36] [UnOrthOdOx] How much more sunny can you be? [20:36] [Kloreep] The only problem is the potential for backstab by SS+MAST [20:36] [Sharpe] yeah [20:36] [Sharpe] another problem is that we are facing a known alliance on the other continent that won't be likely to break up anytime soon [20:36] [UnOrthOdOx] Now, assuming this all goes as planned, we've been gifting the other continent Iron... [20:37] [UnOrthOdOx] We ask them to help with taking LL, invite them over. [20:37] [Sharpe] problem: they won't care about iron once they get saltpeter [20:37] [UnOrthOdOx] Promise them the Iron from LL [20:37] [Kloreep] Sharpe: Perhaps not for a time, but they need it eventually for factories [20:37] [UnOrthOdOx] Once there, they would still have to ferry troops, us/MAST are homeland, I'll take that battle. [20:38] [UnOrthOdOx] Then its a matter of denying Iron for RR's and we'll eventually be able to take their land as a result. [20:38] [Sharpe] hmm yeah - man I really HATE C3C's lack of resources, I have ended up without iron several times in games already [20:38] [Sharpe] coal for RR's not iron [20:39] [Kloreep] UnO: We're betting on no expiration to their continent, in that case [20:39] [UnOrthOdOx] You need BOTH to RR [20:39] [Sharpe] oh never noticed that before [20:39] [UnOrthOdOx] We'll have time to plan for that beforehand if it DOES. [20:39] [Kloreep] Though we could disconnect as much as possible [20:39] [UnOrthOdOx] And if it don't we can disconnect. [20:39] [UnOrthOdOx] xpost. [20:39] [Sharpe] then again until recently I have never been without iron before [20:40] [Sharpe] how much money will we need to upgrade enough troops ? [20:40] [UnOrthOdOx] For the initial landing party to LL? [20:41] [Sharpe] yeah [20:41] [UnOrthOdOx] 10 Med inf and 4 Pike. Don't remember PTW costs [20:41] [Kloreep] That would be 680 [20:41] [UnOrthOdOx] We should be fairly close to that, though? [20:41] [Kloreep] Yes, we have about 600 [20:41] [UnOrthOdOx] what is it 40 for a pike...80 for Med inf? [20:42] [Kloreep] 20 for pikes, 60 for Med Inf [20:42] [UnOrthOdOx] lol [20:42] [Kloreep] And less for the Med Infs if we use some swords instead of warriors [20:42] [Sharpe] and 80 for Riders [20:42] [UnOrthOdOx] Well, I'm going AFK to bathe the kids. [20:43] [Kloreep] 40 with Leo's [20:43] [Sharpe] hmm , we would have to hurry to get Leo's [20:43] [Kloreep] It's no guaranteed thing, but Egg Roll has a shot [20:43] [Sharpe] I am still suspicious of LL's "35 turn" NAP - I mean 35? why 35? [20:54] [Kloreep] Okay, I guess I'll post this part now

	25-03-2004 02:53									#2
	Put an end to popups!

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=111404

Yum.

They're even giving us our excuse to declare war.

Anyway, No comments?

	25-03-2004 05:08									#3
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=111404 Yum. They're even giving us our excuse to declare war.

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Anyway, No comments?

I was thinking the same thing.

	25-03-2004 20:24									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, I definately support having a small invasion fleet to tear up the LL homeland in the event of war. Getting MAST on our side is important, and the iron gifting should help. And, like you said, they may enjoy a good back-stabbing against LL in a fake war on us One big flaw in their aggressive settling is that their one horse supply is on our border, and they'll have to dedicate a lot of forces to defending it, or try and get them from SS (which hopefully we can counter diplomatically).

	26-03-2004 02:48									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

pfft!

I have no intention of attacking their horse source. I would rather use it against them by a show of force drawing thier defenders THERE while we attack elsewhere.

Love what the riders can do in that way...

	26-03-2004 07:05									#6
	Suffering from ads?

UnO, could you post pictures for the warmongering-handicapped? I'm a little confused about your plan.

Landing MIs behind Perla using galleys is a big part of it, but I don't see any path a galley stack could take that wouldn't alert them ahead of time, allowing them to position units to block any landing by Perla, and landing too far away will kill any slowmover stack if they have a decent cat+attacker force.

	26-03-2004 08:10									#7
	Got spare money?

Yes, I see you are confused... I'll work something up.


OK!!!

BUILDERS...

Part 1 of the invasion takes place with our initial naval landing. This would consist of 10 Med Inf and 4 pike ideally.

Option 1 I feel they would have at least SOME kind of defense force ready.

Option 2 is only viable if they are being stupid and not scouting that location. It's also my favorite. A little discrete scouting will let us know whether it's viable.

With three landing possibilties, note that one is but 2 turns from attacking the CAPITOL!

Option 3 would actually be my second choice. Don't ask me why I numbered them this way...

DID I MENTION THAT THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF THIS FORCE IS FOR A DIVERSION? AND TO WOUND...DEEPLY... PILLAGE, RAZE, EAT BABIES, etc.

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 26-03-2004 at 08:26

	26-03-2004 08:33									#8
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So, WHY are we doing this?

Why to draw some attention away from THIS that would be planned to attack 5-6 turns later, ideally.



As you will see, once perla is fallen, the other cities on this side of the choke are cut and WILL fall. We also should have another stack of 7 Med Inf, pikes, and cats ready to take those around this time. However, if we still have a force in their homeland, who knows, we might have caught them with their pants at their knees...

In that case, we deal with SS earlier than planned as they won't stand for complete crushing...

	26-03-2004 11:23									#9
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It's a gambit, but I do like the possibilities. Either the capture of Perla or the razing of Monte de Venus would make a great prize. It could work, assuming MAST can get a large enough army heading to Perla in time, and assuming LL does not have a big enough army to cover both Perla and MdV. However, I'm still mulling the long-term repercussions over. The other continent will hopefully not get involved so long as we don't stick our nose in to their war with Monkey. But SS may very well side with LL. I wouldn't like to see Hoplites marching in to our territory.

What say the rest of you? Are we interested enough to take the risk and bring this possibility up with MAST? They can make the decision for us if the answer is no.

I believe the only build that would need to be changed immediately for this operation is Chop Suey. As our lone harbor for vets, and best coastal city for production besides, it would need to start building galleys immediately. However, this could also affect our decision on whether to switch to Republic.

	14-04-2004 23:40									#10
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*bump* We all know it's coming, so let's start planning for it seriously so it's in our favor

	17-04-2004 19:43									#11
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Yep, time to kill.