25-03-2004 22:38									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski ... It would make the game a lot less prone to "bullying" by which I mean the rich getting together to rob the poor. -Jam

Do people really play mostly this way?
If yes, where is the spirit of competition, honor?

	25-03-2004 23:57									#32
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honor is a antiquated idea...spirit of competition...i see some sense in that

	26-03-2004 00:23									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski I agree with you too. The bitterness has only to do with the people involved, nothing to do with the format of the game. -Jam

Can I agree too?
It is just plain stupid to hate someone because of a game. If it causes bitterness the you shoulnd`t play it.

Why abandon idea of a multifactional game? Why not instead make it run on larger map with conditions that we simply prevent early conflict or buildups.

	26-03-2004 00:51									#34
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quote: Why abandon idea of a multifactional game? Why not instead make it run on larger map with conditions that we simply prevent early conflict or buildups.

I'd say to play on a smaller map, and ENJOY the conflict. And as far as I was aware, the general feel was that the next ACDG would also be a team game.

-Jam

	26-03-2004 00:52									#35
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You know with the proper Alpha Editing we can set the pacing of the game to our liking, making it defensive when we want to or more agressive later on.

On and we did realize half way through the war with PEACE that we had gained most of the possible rewards already and further bases just added Buracracy Drones. So we offered PEACE a Unification inwhich their members would join our forum and a number of captured bases would be returned to PEACE and we would continue from that point as alies. They turned us down unfortunatly, we noticed Uni seemed to be falling apart at that point so we offered the same deal to them and low and behond they accepted.

Also as for Hive and Drones reaching MMI, the tecs they stole from Uni were what alowed them to get it, Tecs from PEACE were rather inconsiquential, the largest prize the Planetary Energy Grid we managed to build before they got their hands on it. When you add it up Cycon did incresse its own power greatly at the expense of PEACE, but your correct that a cooperative perma-pacted Cycon/PEACE would have been more powerfull. But as I said earlier I consider PermaPacting to be against the spirit of the game, conditional and guarded aliances are ok.

	26-03-2004 00:57									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] You know with the proper Alpha Editing we can set the pacing of the game to our liking, making it defensive when we want to or more agressive later on.

I meant also editing alphax file to slow the game.

	26-03-2004 01:11									#37
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quote: Originally posted by obstructor I meant also editing alphax file to slow the game.

Easy, Min/Growth to 15/15, and enable slow research in the startup screen.

	26-03-2004 01:17									#38
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Exactly, plus perhaps playing on larger than huge map with lots of fungus and fungal towers
But this would be to much.

	26-03-2004 02:52									#39
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quote: Originally posted by obstructor If it causes bitterness the you shoulnd`t play it.

If that were true, then many players would not be here
I'm not going ot name names, of course

	26-03-2004 02:59									#40
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with the experience of the first acdg i would advice agaisnt a huge map...nothing will happen then and the game will become boring very soon

	26-03-2004 03:00									#41
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Do we WANT to slow down the game? Its already taken a year to play 60-ish turns. We could slow the game down if we could also keep all teams within the 24 hour limit, or even faster.

-Jam

	26-03-2004 04:10									#42
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What I was disappointed in this game was the length of time required before the teams met and could discuss. Also, everything was so hushed up and quiet and there is so much you can discuss outside the faction without giving anything away and there is so much you can discuss inside the team with the limited numbers without running out of topics.

I once had a crazy idea where all teams started off inflitrated with each other so that we can casually observe and gossip without fear of giving base information anything away. Of course, faction future plans are still kept within the private forums.

Does anyone see any exploit to this or is it fair enough for all?

Problem with this is that it gives the Data Angels a head start. If that is the AI, well they need all the help they can get. If humans, *shudders*.

Last edited by Vev on 26-03-2004 at 04:22

	26-03-2004 06:24									#43
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Nice idea actually Vev

-Jam

	26-03-2004 06:34									#44
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I'm afraid I have to disagree with everyone who says that MP games do not necessarily lead to bitterness and disputes. I have been in every such game on this site and it happens in all of them, to a far greater extent than any SP game so far. I do speak with many many incidents to back my words up with.

I myself am not bitter at anyone, but in a sense everyone. In fact it is more of a disenchantment, born only of the fact of seeing such annoyances surface again, despite my small attempts to avoid them through provoking better contact between us all.

There are two reasons (IMO) for the feuds in this game. The first is that a multifaction game will always lead to them (I am convinced), and I have yet to be shown an instance of such a game that does not. The second is something we CAN help - the very poor state of communication between our opposing faction members due to the ridiculousness of limiting chatting about the game between faction members. If we can free this restriction up then we may stand a chance, but there will still be problems.

Almost the entire Civ3 ISDG and PtWDG lot know each other and get on fantastically in unrelated chat and PBEMs, but that didn't stop some very nasty inter-team problems in the PtWDG, and even within our own team in the Intersite Game.

Whatever measures are put in place for the next game, I will certainly not be participating if it is another multi-faction game. When you are disappointed or frustrated because of something, you try to change it. If you can't then you get it out of your life so it can stop irritating you. If not enough listen to my past and present experiences and decide a SP game is the way to go, then sadly I will have to forego SMACX DGs until enough people realise that a Single faction game is the only way to avoid the disappointments.

	26-03-2004 06:42									#45
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Please. Change the record. You only want to play a SP demo game. I think we all got that by now...

-Jam

	26-03-2004 09:04									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I'm afraid I have to disagree with everyone who says that MP games do not necessarily lead to bitterness and disputes. I have been in every such game on this site and it happens in all of them, to a far greater extent than any SP game so far. I do speak with many many incidents to back my words up with. I myself am not bitter at anyone, but in a sense everyone. In fact it is more of a disenchantment, born only of the fact of seeing such annoyances surface again, despite my small attempts to avoid them through provoking better contact between us all. There are two reasons (IMO) for the feuds in this game. The first is that a multifaction game will always lead to them (I am convinced), and I have yet to be shown an instance of such a game that does not. The second is something we CAN help - the very poor state of communication between our opposing faction members due to the ridiculousness of limiting chatting about the game between faction members. If we can free this restriction up then we may stand a chance, but there will still be problems. Almost the entire Civ3 ISDG and PtWDG lot know each other and get on fantastically in unrelated chat and PBEMs, but that didn't stop some very nasty inter-team problems in the PtWDG, and even within our own team in the Intersite Game. Whatever measures are put in place for the next game, I will certainly not be participating if it is another multi-faction game. When you are disappointed or frustrated because of something, you try to change it. If you can't then you get it out of your life so it can stop irritating you. If not enough listen to my past and present experiences and decide a SP game is the way to go, then sadly I will have to forego SMACX DGs until enough people realise that a Single faction game is the only way to avoid the disappointments.

MWIA is spot on.
Again, I'm in a position where I see things from (mostly) every view, and I can clearly see there is a lot of bitterness and such. I find it kind of ironic that some people think that I'm wrong when I can go into another forum and find out what others are saying about that person
Anyway....Yeah, I'm going to not join the next DG either. Waaaay too much cheating, too much bitterness, and just too much nastiness in this game. People trying to circumvent the rules (and a lot of them getting away with it), legalese, broken friendships...It's just not worth all the emotional energy too me

Edit: Though MWIA, theres something I don't think you understand. There were people who were infiltrating other factions, and they got away with it cause their smart.
Thats why the rule was implimented: So I could active go after these people. Taking away this rule would just allow it again and yes, there are players in this game that would do it.

	26-03-2004 13:06									#47
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There's no way to stop it, Tass. There's a LOT of smart people who play SMAC/X and they're mostly used to winning...

-Jam

	26-03-2004 13:07									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski There's no way to stop it, Tass.

ACDGSP

	26-03-2004 13:22									#49
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Its probably time this was put to a vote.

Again

-Jam

	26-03-2004 14:14									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar ACDGSP

Mmm, does nobody endorse ACDGSP-AIAF then?

Alpha Centauri Democracy Game Single Player-Artificial Intelligence Aiding Faction.

Surely there must be some people who can participate in a SP game as playing an extra human controlled faction just helping the AI's a bit, not for actively trying to win.

	26-03-2004 19:05									#51
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Why not go with the idea I proposed earlier, 6 single player humans each submit orders to a "Prime Minister" who plays all 6 of these turns inteligently. The 6 Faction Ministers can fight each other and conduct diplomacy between each other and the single Democracy Faction. Turns would be 48 each for the Democracy Team and the Prime Minister so that 86 hours a turn (4 days) more then twice as fast as we have managed this game.

	27-03-2004 03:31									#52
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On the history of the game maybe a little info will shed some light.

The Drones and Hive met very early (IIRC already around 2120) due to Drones aquiring a unity foil from a pod.

It was obvious that we were very close (seperated on a long stretch by one tile of water) and the landmass drones had seemed on first glance rather small - so it was obvious that we would need to get along or slug it out rather soon.

There was a lot of discussion inside Drones concerning permapacting - I was personally strongly arguing against but the rest were in favour. What tipped the scale was that it was starting to look like there was extensive Cycon-Peace cooperation. Both being slow tech'ers we needed to cooperate smoothly to avoid double reseaching and getting into an arms race. To settle any suspicion the permapact was then finally agreed around turn turn 30. This included agreements on SP distribution - research beelines - borders etc.

At this time we had also located Uni (we were not sure it was Uni - but the obviously was a faction as a bunch of "b" landmarks were seen). They were clearly in drop range - and it was obvious that some trading involving uni was also being performed by Peace-Cycon. The plan to attack Uni once we aquired MMI with one massive blow were already agreed upon and pretty much finalized then.

Now what was envisaged at the time was a Hive-Drone vs Cycon-Peace Alliance. Taking out Uni was seen as what would tilt the game in our favor. By taking out the one popboomable faction that properly played would also be able to make us stay behind in research.

It was expected that peace would have been making contacts and located most or all other factions (their main advantage being sea bound) and that there might well come a "who gets uni first" race or that Cycon Peace by then would be well into assimilating some of the AIs.

Had the peace/Cycon fallout not occured this may well have been what happened. Once it did - it of course shifted the whole balance of the game. By this time though we had been cooperating well for a while and pulling back out of the permapact to recreate balance was not really feasible. Too much agreements and plans and builds were already based on the fact that the pact was there - we were extensively leapfrogging techs, Hive had been allowed to do the Planetary Transit & HGP to help them overcome the pop boom inability etc.

It should be remembered that by 2120-2130 it was by no means a foregiven conclusion that we would end up leaders in both research & production by 2150. At this time we were bending over backwards to keep up. What we were aiming for was getting MMI not much later than Uni - building a massive attack force and then with no warning strike so hard that the fight would be over in a couple of turns not giving uni any time to build a defensive force which is then what we did.

Plans did not extend much beyond that - as it was hoped with Uni out of the game we would now be able to outperform peace - Cycon by peaceful means alone - due to their inabilkity to pop boom - so the decision to take the war further could be delayed till then. Basically once Uni was gone time was on our side if we played well. Had the Cycon/Peace pact lasted and Uni played well and both sides (or started siding with Peace/Cycon) we would be doomed to play tech catch-up.

The moment Peace/Cycon first pacted Uni had to go as far as we were concerned. The peace/Cycon conflict really is what threw the balance. By then the rest of the stage had been set.

I guess it is fair to say that the balance is now so strongly in our favor ending the game is pretty much a matter of going through the motions. It is certainly hard to see how Cycon should be able to save it but if they want to play their chance or hone their war skills they of course should.

That it went this way I would however say is as much if not more due to the rest of you messing around as it is due to the Hive-Drone alliance not doing so.

	27-03-2004 03:44									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Edit: Though MWIA, theres something I don't think you understand. There were people who were infiltrating other factions, and they got away with it cause their smart. Thats why the rule was implimented: So I could active go after these people. Taking away this rule would just allow it again and yes, there are players in this game that would do it.

I joined late in the game, just as CyCon was getting ever more frustrated due to the situation with PEACE, and there are many things I did not see. So I can see the need, with such things happening as you mention, for a TassaGod to enforce some rules. However I still fail to see how cutting down on chatting prevents infiltration. Anyway, am getting a little OT here.

And Jamski - should I just tell you that I know you want another Multi-faction game and you should change YOUR message? I am staunchly for the side that happens to be opposite to the opinion of most here, and I will continue to try to convince people of the validity of my points until such a time as I get them accepted or I decide it's no longer worth the effort.

Or should I just go away now then?

Only kidding. You'll be stuck with me for a while.

	27-03-2004 05:52									#54
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Hey, I'm not saying change your message, mate. I've got no problem with your opinion... you just aired it quite a lot

-Jam

	27-03-2004 05:56									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Hey, I'm not saying change your message, mate. I've got no problem with your opinion... you just aired it quite a lot -Jam

It's an IMPORTANT message. I have a lot of experience with these games.

	27-03-2004 07:11									#56
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Question for Buster: How much did the Hive tell you about its relation with Cycon and about the War with PEACE? We warned them about it in an atempt to improve relations but now we see this was futile. Also I find it rather hard to belive you were convinced of Cycon/PEACE permapacting as PEACE was trying to Pact everyone for comerce at that point including the Hive and Uni, in a Democracy game their is a considerable differnce between PACT status and PERMAPACT. Your plan to go after Uni with MMI was ofcorse quite good as was the tec coperation which eleviated the major downside to both your factions.

I think in the end the map design can be credited with most of the games course. Hive + Drones forced to either coperate or Fight and then within Drop Range of Uni only.

	27-03-2004 07:51									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] I think in the end the map design can be credited with most of the games course. Hive + Drones forced to either coperate or Fight and then within Drop Range of Uni only.

Hmm - how to respond diplomatically?

In pre-game discussions I was given broad hints that the Hive and UoP would fight at some stage, so in drawing up the map, and placing the AI, I sort of allowed for the following broad alliances:

Hive/CyCon vs Drones/Uni, with PEACE as a broker, possibly aligning with the Angels and believers to form a strong third pact (Believers are submissive to Roze, who likes PEACE)

Hive vs UoP alone, with CyCon/PEACE forming a strong bloc and the Drones aligning with Angels/Believers (who like the Drones)

Given their proximity, I could also see the Drones and Hive allying against the UoP and CyCon for a classic Industry vs Research battle, with PEACE either doing its thing with Roze and Miriam, or possibly joining the researchers as their naval arm.

I drew up the map and start positions with these thoughts in mind.

But it's all been thrashed out already - PEACE tried to screw the last nickel from CyCon, pissing them off, and the rest is history

G.

	27-03-2004 07:56									#58
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I like Vev's idea about universal infiltration.

While it would take some of the game out of play, there would be plenty of redeeming aspects, not the least of which would be the educational opportunies: to learn some pretty good stuff from watching the play in the other factions and probably some good stuff about the relative intrinsic values of the factions themselves. I would venture that each of us has something to learn in such an arena - it would be like playing in 5 SP democracy or succession games at once. The infiltration would also remove the temptation to effect infiltration via DL or whatever other insidious methods there might be (and here I though that Cap'n Hercules was being paranoid about all that stuff when Tass is seemingly saying it was apparently going on all over).

As far as lessons-learned goes, one thing that seemed to work against us as the Pirates was the ever looming turn time limit, which put the turn player and diplomats under a lot of time pressure, expecially when we had lots of diplomatic contacts and most everybody else had contact only with us. During this period, IIRC, there was lots of chatter in the forum about taking too much time; ironically it was mostly the PUT who was getting charged with that in the threads, but we were the ones who were trying to conduct diplomacy with largely unresponsive counterparts in the other factions and were feeling the heat. That the Borgs exploited this (by intractable stalling and ultimately expropriatiing the preaccepted tech that was our attempt to work around the time problem) in their betrayal does not make the problem more endearing to me; the fact that we included messages (to the effect that we were preaccepting the tech only as a workaround to keep the game moving) in both email and by reference in the trade window dialog box seemed to be insufficient protection not only in the game but also (and most surprisingly to me) in the ensuing debates and rulings.

As for the rulings - well we weren't too happy a couple of times - but I suppose that is just the way it goes. The gods definitely had their work cut out for them if they were going to keep everyone happy, and while I don't know what other rulings there were that left behind other unhappy people on other factions, I'd be surprised if there weren't any. Aside from the obvious effects upon us in the game, I think that the thing that bothered me the most about the ruling/decisionmaking process was that the issue had already been decided by the god(s) before we even knew there was an issue - and there was no real opportunity to contest the ruling. It seems that the Borg had already cleared the preaccepted tech caper before doing it - which is all very well, and there is certainly nothing underhanded about that, but - talk about the feeling that what you have to say doesn't matter in the least - it would be nice to have some input into a decision that sinks your faction, or possibly some appeals process. Despite all this, I would definitely join the parade of people who are not embittered, although the word 'angry' could very well have come into play at times .

Well, I'm not sure what could be done about either of these problems, although the time problem might be more tractable. I do think, however, that the general format, with maybe a few changes here and there, is still pretty good and worth a repeat without really massive changes in concept.

As to the single faction versus PBEM styles, I think that there are some people who go one way and others who go the other way (plus some "bi"'s too , I suppose) and there's no reason to argue people of one persuasion into the other - if there are enough people to play one kind or the other, the people who can't abide the style chosen can wait a while until their other style comes up again.

Edit: Googs, how can you say we were being extortionate? You must have known how stubborn they were being for their own part - we were mostly just bargaining, and trying to protect our nautical monopoly (you can see what happened to us when we lost it, so obviously it was valuable!), and the Borg took offense at that, to the extent that they started researching the techs themselves, forcing us to trade the techs to them or penalize both our factions by wasting research cycles double researching. Most likely the cycle of rancor began with that, although I have heard other stories.

Last edited by johndmuller on 27-03-2004 at 08:22

	27-03-2004 18:33									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] Question for Buster: How much did the Hive tell you about its relation with Cycon and about the War with PEACE? ..... Also I find it rather hard to belive you were convinced of Cycon/PEACE permapacting as PEACE was trying to Pact everyone for comerce at that point including the Hive and Uni, in a Democracy game their is a considerable differnce between PACT status and PERMAPACT..... I think in the end the map design can be credited with most of the games course. Hive + Drones forced to either coperate or Fight and then within Drop Range of Uni only.

We were informed that there were factions inside the Hive that heavily favored Cycon and informed of heated discussions on the matter. Kody however per we understod managed to make them see that going with us was the most viable course.

On the Cycon/Peace pact the fact that peace were trying to pact others is not really an indication of not being in a permapact. Pacts are usually just "arrangements that enhance energy output on both sides". What made us assume it was occuring was that there seemed to be extensive co-operation (tech leapfrogging) and cycon frequently seemed to have info that appeared to have been relayed by peace (though it turns out later it may have come from spies inside Hive)

On the last point I agree. The map made it sort of the obvious way to go. Especialy after a quake conected us and Hive.

	27-03-2004 20:08									#60
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In response to Googlie:

Interesting that you pointed out a number aliances between Human and AI factions, I never realy considered their to be much potential for that in this sort of game. AI's are unreliable and uncoperative alies unless given tons of godies which they then proceed to squander. Roze had a wonderfull continent yet managed to come out only in the middle of the Pack. I personaly considered both the AI's to be nothing more then Meals for the Human players to fight over once they got the nessary Conquest tecnologies. I had hoped Cycon would have been able to assimilate one or more of the AI's at some point and expand its territory and population even more but alas we never had a good breathing spell after the PEACE war inwhich to organize shuch a thing. Whats the opinion of other factions on the viability of AI alies?


I regards to the idea of All around Infiltration, I belive it might make the game a bit dull as their would be no suprises like the one Cycon pulled on PEACE. Instead we might go with a middle ground aproatch. Require each faction to publish a set of public Data which represents all thouse things that everyone SHOULD know in a realistic game.

Credit Reserves
Credit Income
Maintance Costs
All tecs Currently Posesse and the one being reserched
List of all Bases and their Populations
List of active Military Units

You can still conceal what your producing in every base and the location of your forces so its a major step down from what you get from Infiltration. This list could be worked over and revised possibly adding some conditions for How a Truce or Treaty might affect it.