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mart7x5
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Talking about single faction DG, will AI alone be good opponents? I think if all opposite factions gonna be AI diplomacy in the game will be of very low quality
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:34
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From my viewpoint here's how it went.
We had an informal agreement to permi-pact with the cycon right as the start of the game. However, Googlie ruled the further communication was illegal.
We met the drones with colony pod only 1 square away from the drone scout and the scout was sitting on the base site we had planned. This was important as we only had about 3 bases at the time.
There was some discussion and it was decided to immediately pact to ensure the safety of our homeland as a single scout might be able to set us back a few years. The drones seemed to cooperate and removed the scout and but they pacted later with us.
During this time analysis of the situation was performed. We had this data.
* Drones across the narrow channel.
* They have a unity foil, hive does not have a unity foil.
* Drones are supposed to be the verterans in this game, eg strongest players.
* They have more of an industry advantage than us.
We discussed it further and decided these things.
* Optimal time to attack for a war would be 20-25 years after our meeting.
* It would be difficult getting Foils within 20 years.
* The hive had no experience in the SMAX worth talking about
* Due to having no foil, finding and getting assistance from the cycon was unlikely.
* After the 20-25 year mark drones would slowly outstrip us due to being able to pop boom.
* Drones have +2 armor while hive had permi-defences
* Hive had +2 armor
* An early war with drones would result to a fairly shattered victor and even at the optimial attack time chances of winning would be sketchy at best.
* We hated university and the university or perhaps another faction would roll over us before we could rebuild.
* We could get an extra forum to spam in as buster was an forum administrator. 
We discussed it and it was decided that we didn't have a good enough chance of beating the drones. Firstly, it was decided we probably wouldn't be able to find any allies that would be able to help us in time. In a cold war the drones would eventually win. An early war would be difficult as we didn't have the transportation.
So the conclusion was from a game standpoint pacting with the drones and actually having them as a real ally would be a far better option. However, we believed the drones would eventually outstrip us, so we started considering permi-pact.
This was when I presented the arguements for and against pacting with the drones in an unbiased way. Mainly the arguement was tilted towards pacting with the drones as it would give us the most game advantge. Personally, I would have choosen the cycon. However, I felt it was the job of the faction to decide whether they wanted to take the suboptimal route.
This was when the main discussion started occurring on whether to ditch the cycon or not. That that stage there was strong cycon support, but we didn't know when we would get in contact with the cycon. There was alot of repeating arguments, and mostly it was about people's opinions.
There was three main groups.
1. Stick with cycon as our permi-pact target, cross fingers and hope for the best.
2. Decide what to do later, just keep drones happy in mean time
3. Permi-Pact with Drones.
I argued strongly against option 2 due to the whole issue of needing to prepare for an early war straight away while we had a chance. Later on we wouldn't have anything to decide.
The group was strongly leaning towards option 1 until someone pointed out we could permi-pact with the drones and still pact with the cycon later. Forgot who suggested it, but that basically decided the arguement as the roleplayers and the ... (actually we were all roleplayers at that stage)... well the roleplayers could have fun interacting with the cycon later even if we didn't have a permi-pact.
So it was decided to permi-pact with the drones and pact with the Cycon later. After that decision was made I raised the issue of what happens if there's a conflict of interest between the Cycon and the Drones and suggested that we might want to discuss it again with that in mind, but everyone so sick of talking about that issue that I was ignored.
Several years passed and the drones won my admiration and my trust as I observed them in my position of diplomat. Around that stage I liked the drones and the Cycon equally (I liked the Cycon because of that whole encryption thingy).
During my time as diplomat and pushed strongly for always tell the truth and openness with anyone we considered an ally. So we kept the drones fully informed and when we met the pirates we carefully specified that it was a non-aggression and research pact so they wouldn’t get false impressions of any strong alliance.
University, well we had already made it clear we hated them….
Anyway we met the Cycon the hive was in a bit of a bind, everyone pretty much wanted to pact with them straight away, but there was the issue of the permi-pact with the drones.
I tried to figure out a solution that the hive would accept involving long term pacting, but gave myself a headache instead. People called my solution too “peaceful”. Honghu tried to push the same thing later only without a full vote, but I stopped her because I had a feeling that there would be too much team dissent (which incidentally happened shortly afterwards anyway).
There were three reasons why the pact with the Cycon didn’t work out.
1. While the hive was willing to share all and any information with the Cycon, I got orders to hide the drone-hive permi-pact. That was the only thing I held back from the Cycon. That one point made it really difficult for me to deal with the Cycon and consequently I passed the Cycon ambassador job to someone else.
I think one or two of the other ambassadors added a few other secrets during the later stages.
2. The cycon was holding back from the hive, and from the way they acted it seemed they believed we were hold back ourselves (we were about that drone-hive permi-pact). This lead to general distrust between our two factions. Also we didn’t actually want anything from the Cycon so I was constantly trying squeeze gifts past the rest of hive team to keep relations alive. What I didn’t realise at the time was this lead to a negative effect on the Hive side as people saw gifts going towards the Cycon, but nothing coming back.
3. Finally there was that nastiness where the Cycon tried to influence the Hive not as a whole, but as individuals. Nobody in the hive had the full picture of what was going on and that was what really killed the relations as it seemed that the Cycon were trying to subvert the Hive members and were being successful too. For the record I have nothing against Impaler and I see that incident as my mistake. It was other PMs/chating that made me hate the Cycon (mostly after I was no longer a hive member). I can deal with jabs at my faction to gain advantage, but deal poorly at ones that get personal…
Anyway vote had swung against the cycon when the dust settled as it was felt that the Cycon had been screwing the Hive over throughout the whole private PM/chating period (thankfully I was on my way out the door at this time so I didn’t have to deal with diplomacy anymore).
The hive actually had very little of a plan as most of the members preferred to deal with things as they came up. Most long term planning was making sure the hive wouldn’t get knocked out of the game. The war against the university was really just “lets kill the university” without too much thought on any specifics. The drones fortunately dealt with the long term planning on that invasion, otherwise the hive would have come up with a plan the turn before it launched an attack.
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mart7x5
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So what is the status? Game is played? There is a winner now or a new game starts soon?
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Minute Mirage
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Helsinki
Aug 2003
time: 07:34
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Could someone please summarize what was the whole deal with the Hive hating the University right from the start? People taking things too personally in the first ACDG I presume? It would be nice to get a who-hates-whom chart for the next game so everyone can know which factions will be fighting each other.
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Snowflake
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falling, once again
Apr 2003
time: 23:34
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At the start of the game, most active players are from the ACDGI I think, that may have more or less predetermined the Hive's attitude toward PUT and CyCon. And that was how the interactions between teams in the public forum went.
As for Drones I think Jamski initially advocated that they were the true enemy. Later Jamski was absent for about a month and that's when we met the Drones. As the active players then were newer members such as Kody and I, we didn't have much predetermined attitude. Kody worked hard and Drones coorperated well and that coorperation finally developed into a perm pact. Through all the time before and after the perm pact, there have been members in the Hive at different times that worried if the Drones are trustworthy. And the Drones has not done even one thing that would validate such worries. Time after time, they have repeatedly proved their trustfulness.
When Hive met the CCs, I volunteered as the CC ambassador. I pushed for a perm pact between us also. However it was determined that perm pact among three strong teams are unfair to the other two teams. So Drones agreed to let Hive pursue its own relationship with the CCs. We had an agreement if the Drones were to go to war with the CCs the Hive can still be friendly with the CCs. And Drones even agreed that they would not oppose a dip victory later.
While I was very happy that Drones had been very understanding, the relationship between Hive and CCs has turned sour. As the CC ambassador I have always tried to be open and truthful. Other than the one info of Hive Drone perm pact that is determined by the team that should not be told to the CCs, I've not hidden anything else from the CCs. In fact I've actually hinted to them the strength of the Hive Drones pact. I have also always tried to be honorable. Jamski had an agreement with Drogue that they would vote for Hive for the governorship and Hive in turn will provide PUT and PEACE infiltration data gained from governor position. Later when it turned out that CCs needed the info before the governor election, although Jamski is not in office any more, and there were oppositions in the team regarding providing peace info to the CCs since peace is also our pact member, I made the decision that the info should be provided, even before the election, since I believed that we needed to honor agreement made by an Hive officer, even if he is not in office any more.
One factor that Hive CC relationship turned sour is that we were not able to pull through any trades. The Hive had not been very eager for actual techs and CCs were not very enthusiastic about unit trading. However, at that time, there were still opportunities that the Hive CyCon relationship becomes stronger and deeper if not for all the little incidents that caused more and more distrusts within both teams. The misdelievered PM threatening Hive declaring vendetta against PEACE or face vendetta from the CyCons was the last straw that breaks the camel's back. While I argued that it wasn't the CCs true intent, Jamski refused to explain and the last Hive team members that were in favor of the CCs were turned angry and distrustful toward them. This incident is still a puzzle for me. I wondered and am still wondering if it was a honest mistake or if it was a deliberate sabotage of the Hive CC relationship. Anyway, I realized that my solo effort for deeper Hive CC relationship is not going to be fruitful and resigned from the ambassador position.
Still the Hive has not, till this day, planned to attack the CCs. But it was determined to carry on its plan to attack the PUT even after the PUT CC merge. Needless to say, the Hive CC relationship was nowhere to influence the Hive to act otherwise. All that I can do, was to hint the coming of a war.
Trust is such a sensitive and delicate thing. It is so easy to be spoiled. But it can also grow if it is carefully tendered. The Hive had not been very big on PEACE initially. However, the PEACE's behavior in their last stage has turned the Hive's attitude around. I have always been a firm believer of peace and love. I wonder if we really are at that stage that we must be enemies of each other? Can't we bury all the bitterness and hold hands again? Is there no other ways to play the game than to beat each other and claim victory based on others demolition? Is it true that only playing evil is fun and playing nice is boring? Is the planet too small for all of us? Can't we all unite and conqure the ones that will not unite with us and call this a better victory? Right now we still have all the five teams. This is the status of the game. We are at a point that we can still say we stand together and we are strong and we can prevail in this unhuman foreign new world.
I am asking you, all of you. Is it still possible. Is it still possible that we can say, using our own will, and our own action, to the world, that war is not the only way, that peace is not a dream, that there is still hope for the humanity.
Last edited by Snowflake on 30-03-2004 at 00:00
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:34
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HongHu - I reflect what Franky already said, that your post was well-stated.  However it seems it is too late. Many members of CPU have lost hope. If we had got such a conciliatory message from the Hive in recent turns we would all still be going, but many of us have effectively given up on reaching a meaningful relationship with the Hive as we once had. Let me describe below our frustrations.
Whatever you mean Voltaire, I seriously doubt that the game will continue from CPU's side. To steal the saying HongHu has already used, the quick conquest of most of the Uni and the fact that it became apparent to us that the Hive was not going to apologise and sign a treaty were the straws that broke the camel's back. The impression I get is that very few CPU members feel it is worth continuing when it is clear that the two other large factions are effectively united against the CPU, where we still maintain we never had aggressive intentions towards anyone with PEACE no longer able to threaten us.
To address some of your comments HongHu, there was considerable frustration on CyCon's side that the Hive did not want any techs (although we understood why). HOWEVER, there certainly were discussions about deals involving units that no-one objected to, in fact we too were eager to get a trade. When nothing eventuated from this I at least assumed that communications had broken down, and I remember too that we assumed you guys weren't interested or were just too self-involved for a time when there was no concrete responses from your side. I am still very puzzled why so many good starts in deals with the Hive just seemed to either be delayed too long or just fizzle out when nothing was heard in return.
As for the PM you mention that was YOUR final straw, I have no idea about that. I can't claim that I know all the CPU's workings, but I was active enough to know that no PM that was sent to the Hive in any official capacity was anything less than conciliatory, seeking a solution rather than threatening.
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Comrade Tassadar
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If CyConians don't think they'll win....why doesn't CyCon capitulate and end this game quickly?
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28-03-2004 02:23
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