28-03-2004 10:11									#151
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by cinch So a teacher has no force of authority over the class? The central authority figure is encouraging the children to stand and recite the pledge. They are not being literally FORCED, obviously, but they are being COMPELLED.

No they aren't... if you are compelled to do something, you end up actually doing it.

	28-03-2004 10:12									#152
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Aeson If no one's saying it then why even have time allotted for anyone "say it" in class in the first place? Just a waste of time if you think it has no coercive 'benefit', and shouldn't be in the classroom if it does.

Because the school board is full of idiots. Plus it only takes about 15-20 seconds, a small percentage of the morning announcements.

	28-03-2004 11:28									#153
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: the child will feel obligated or influenced to take part in the recital.

Once again, how many classes have you been in where the pledge was recited? Most students consider it a boring waste of time and don't say anything, even if they are standing and have their hand on their chest.

	28-03-2004 11:35									#154
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

As I recall, most students recited the pledge (which happened only in elementary school).

The pledge doesn't have force of authority, however it violates the establishment clause (if voluntary school prayer is unconstitutional, I see no reason why the pledge shouldn't be).

Of course, the most odious aspect to the pledge isn't the "under God" thing, but the the idea that elementary school students should recite loyalty oaths.

	28-03-2004 11:37									#155
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Of course, the most odious aspect to the pledge isn't the "under God" thing, but the the idea that elementary school students should recite loyalty oaths.

But that doesn't even touch a Constitutional violation whatsoever.

	28-03-2004 11:38									#156
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I never said it did.

	28-03-2004 11:43									#157
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Then it's just a silly attempt at threadjacking! I'm not going to allow that!

	28-03-2004 11:57									#158
	Increase the size of your Attachments

What are you gonna do about it, punk?

	28-03-2004 12:00									#159
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'll get Fez to throw you out of an airplane!

	28-03-2004 12:03									#160
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

That only works with helicopters.

	28-03-2004 17:46									#161
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Kucinich, I did a course on comparitive theology in College. Are you in High School or college? If you are in HS and took that course as an elective, I'm impressed.

	28-03-2004 20:58									#162
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ramo As I recall, most students recited the pledge (which happened only in elementary school).

You're wrong.

The ONLY school in which a significant portion of the students (in this case, all) said the pledge was a Catholic school I went to for 1st-4th grades (until I escaped).

	28-03-2004 20:59									#163
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Kucinich, I did a course on comparitive theology in College. Are you in High School or college? If you are in HS and took that course as an elective, I'm impressed.

I haven't taken it yet, and probably won't (no room in my schedule ) but it's probably not nearly as deep as a college course - it's only a semester.

However, we get plenty of education about this stuff in our Humanities courses (HUM is a paired English-History course that we do for 10th, 11th, and 12th grade).

	28-03-2004 21:36									#164
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Would religious people refuse to say the pledge if it didn't have "under God" in it? I can't think why they would.

IIRC. the 7th Day Adventists have always refused to say the pledge because their allegiance is to God.

	28-03-2004 21:38									#165
	Tired of ads?

Personally, I think anyone who refuses it on grounds like that should lose their citizenship - if your allegiance isn't to the US, then you have no right to be a citizen of it.

	28-03-2004 21:47									#166
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The two problems with that position are that: (a) the Constitution provides no mechanism for revoking the citizenship of any person born in America and (b) Article I permits persons to hold any religious belief the wish.

	28-03-2004 23:24									#167
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Personally, I think anyone who refuses it on grounds like that should lose their citizenship - if your allegiance isn't to the US, then you have no right to be a citizen of it.

So, in order to ensure allegiance to the American republic and "liberty and justice", you'd violate the first Ammendment through a coercive rite that restricts liberty? How...interesting.

Nothing in the Constitution requires a U.S. citizen to have allegiance to the U.S. at any rate.

Secondly, what would be the point? As many have mentioned, the Pledge really doesn't have much effect on people one way or another. People recite it from rote, usually not thinking a thing about it. But if you were to do this, you'd be tacking on a meaning of totalitarian authoritarianism that is just going to piss people off, not inspire any patriotic senitment. You'd ultimately achieve the opposite of your goal--you'd just make more people, like the 7th Day adventists and such, resentful of the authoritarian reach of their government into their personal beliefs.

	28-03-2004 23:27									#168
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: That only works with helicopters.

	29-03-2004 01:36									#169
	Remove this text

quote: You're wrong.

I wasn't aware that you went to the same elementary school classes as I did.

quote: Personally, I think anyone who refuses it on grounds like that should lose their citizenship - if your allegiance isn't to the US, then you have no right to be a citizen of it.

Maybe according to David Duke. I'm not "loyal" to this gov't, never have been. And I wouldn't want to be a citizen of a state that forces me to recite a loyalty oath.

	29-03-2004 01:58									#170
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So, in order to ensure allegiance to the American republic and "liberty and justice", you'd violate the first Ammendment through a coercive rite that restricts liberty? How...interesting. Nothing in the Constitution requires a U.S. citizen to have allegiance to the U.S. at any rate.

It's no different than requiring people to take a loyalty oath to be naturalized.

	29-03-2004 01:59									#171
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ramo

I happen to have been in elementary school more recently than you

quote: Maybe according to David Duke. I'm not "loyal" to this gov't, never have been. And I wouldn't want to be a citizen of a state that forces me to recite a loyalty oath.

People who emigrate here and want to become citizens have to.

	29-03-2004 03:07									#172
	Got spare money?

quote: So, if it has no meaning, it doesn't hurt to remove the various bits of references to a higher being, right?

sure, remove it, or keep it, i don't care.

quote: I have always thought the US is a secular state?

yes. and you do realize i know that, seeing as i also point out that no matter what those fundies want you to think, america is not a xtian nation.

	29-03-2004 06:25									#173
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich [q] Originally posted by Boris Godunov It's no different than requiring people to take a loyalty oath to be naturalized.

You don't think there's a big difference between a one-time oath of loyalty for a foreign-born person to earn citizenship vs. a repeated pledge of allegiance, the failure of which to recite would result in stripping anyone, even natural-born citizens, of their citizenship? I see a rather big difference.

You didn't answer the second point, however: Why? What purpose would it ultimately serve?

	29-03-2004 06:26									#174
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich [q] Originally posted by Ramo People who emigrate here and want to become citizens have to.

They've previously been loyal to another state, so it makes sense there. The same does not apply to natural-born citizens or anyone who is a naturalized citizen, as the very fact of being a citizen is implication of allegiance and loyalty.

	29-03-2004 06:36									#175
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You don't think there's a big difference between a one-time oath of loyalty for a foreign-born person to earn citizenship vs. a repeated pledge of allegiance, the failure of which to recite would result in stripping anyone, even natural-born citizens, of their citizenship? I see a rather big difference.

I meant more to make it a one-time oath when you're 18.

quote: You didn't answer the second point, however: Why? What purpose would it ultimately serve?

The same as the oath for naturalization - to weed out those who are blatantly and obviously not deserving of citizenship.

	29-03-2004 06:40									#176
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich The same as the oath for naturalization - to weed out those who are blatantly and obviously not deserving of citizenship.

That's a theory, but note how I addressed ultimately it would have no such effect:

quote: Secondly, what would be the point? As many have mentioned, the Pledge really doesn't have much effect on people one way or another. People recite it from rote, usually not thinking a thing about it. But if you were to do this, you'd be tacking on a meaning of totalitarian authoritarianism that is just going to piss people off, not inspire any patriotic senitment. You'd ultimately achieve the opposite of your goal--you'd just make more people, like the 7th Day adventists and such, resentful of the authoritarian reach of their government into their personal beliefs.

Considering your above answer as well, I'd have to point out that nothing in the Constitution requires someone to be loyal to the U.S. above their god, families or such. So "not deserving of citizenship" is a bad reason, since the only thing that makes one "deserve" it is being natural-born or naturalized.

	29-03-2004 23:22									#177
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: I happen to have been in elementary school more recently than you

Not every elementary school is the same. As your own elementary school experience demonstrates. And things don't change very much in a few years.

quote: People who emigrate here and want to become citizens have to.

As Boris has pointed out, immigrants are forced to do it only once (which is still once too many). And I very much doubt that we're forcing minors to recite loyalty oaths. You're suggesting forcing this nationalistic garbage down the throats of children every school day.