27-03-2004 20:30									#121
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Would religious people refuse to say the pledge if it didn't have "under God" in it? I can't think why they would. They were saying it all the time before it was inserted. So removing it would make the pledge palatable to all Americans, religious and non-religious. Excepting those who don't like the pledge in and of itself, which makes it a moot point for them anyway.

	27-03-2004 20:31									#122
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i don't want to read the rest of the thread.

but my two cents:

the meaning of the pledge, seeing as it's generally only said at school, is next to nothing, because most kids i know--and i myself remember from when i was in school--either didn't understand the point of the pledge or didn't give a damn about it. the phrase "under god" is just more frivolity. *****ing about it is about the same as *****ing about "in god we trust" written on the dollar bills--what's the point? there's no meaning behind the phrase anymore, no matter what those fundies want you to think.

so while the guy has a valid point, i don't see why he felt the need to be arsed to complain; i don't see why anybody else feels arsed to actually listen to the guy; i don't see why anyone's really arsed to make it an issue.

and i find it absolutely, heinously, disgustingly repulsive that he used his daughter--who did not even raise it as an issue to anyone--in order to further his own political goals.

	27-03-2004 20:41									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed and i find it absolutely, heinously, disgustingly repulsive that he used his daughter--who did not even raise it as an issue to anyone--in order to further his own political goals.

Sadly, there's nothing new to this. Parents hold it as a right to speak for their kids and to have what they want taught to the kid in schools, not what the kid wants. It's part of being a minor. After all, you have all the instances where reactionay parents have demanded the firings of gay teachers, when in fact the kids usually don't care a bit about it.

	27-03-2004 20:47									#124
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quote: Sadly, there's nothing new to this. Parents hold it as a right to speak for their kids and to have what they want taught to the kid in schools, not what the kid wants. It's part of being a minor. After all, you have all the instances where reactionay parents have demanded the firings of gay teachers, when in fact the kids usually don't care a bit about it.

and it's revolting when parents do that sort of thing. it doesn't excuse them either for making an issue out of a non-issue.

	27-03-2004 20:59									#125
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Boris and Q-Cubed, please look at my earlier posts in this thread. The mom has been born again, and I got to listen to interviews with both of them. Evidently the courts in California decided to let her sue for sole custody AFTER they had joint custody, and for whatever reason decided to award it to her. From his comment at the Supreme Court (an aetheist cannot get elected in this country, he got applause and Rehnquist threatened to clear the galleries), and the direct experiences some of our friends have had (the worst was a Jewish father here in Kentucky got the converted Sufi mom BANNED from even metioning that "cult" to her children, as the judge understood it, and yes the ACLU got involved, but in family court the judge is god with a little g) that the dad's aetheism may easily have had something to do with it. It's OK to be born again in Christ, in fact the courts like you then when it comes to sentencing and custody. Don't be gay or an aetheist.

So he now sees not only does his wife get to terminate his joint custody, now the state is further telling his daughter that he's wrong. I'd be a mite bit irritated, too. Of course I also know that it NEVER pays to be vocal (he is), on a topic the judge is more than likely (over 95% chance) to disagree with you, and to be eloquent about it. Yes, he probably took a 12 gauge to his foot. But he's not USING his daughter, he really feels this. As I said before, you should never sleep with someone whith whom you disagree that much (Zykla and Self-Biased please note! )

	27-03-2004 21:27									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed the meaning of the pledge, seeing as it's generally only said at school, is next to nothing, because most kids i know--and i myself remember from when i was in school--either didn't understand the point of the pledge or didn't give a damn about it. the phrase "under god" is just more frivolity. *****ing about it is about the same as *****ing about "in god we trust" written on the dollar bills--what's the point? there's no meaning behind the phrase anymore, no matter what those fundies want you to think. so while the guy has a valid point, i don't see why he felt the need to be arsed to complain; i don't see why anybody else feels arsed to actually listen to the guy; i don't see why anyone's really arsed to make it an issue.

Its meaninglessness has no bearing on its offensiveness. If we don't fix the little things in life, we'll never get around to fixing the big ones.

	27-03-2004 23:02									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed the meaning of the pledge, seeing as it's generally only said at school, is next to nothing, because most kids i know--and i myself remember from when i was in school--either didn't understand the point of the pledge or didn't give a damn about it. the phrase "under god" is just more frivolity. *****ing about it is about the same as *****ing about "in god we trust" written on the dollar bills--what's the point? there's no meaning behind the phrase anymore, no matter what those fundies want you to think.

So, if it has no meaning, it doesn't hurt to remove the various bits of references to a higher being, right?

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed so while the guy has a valid point, i don't see why he felt the need to be arsed to complain; i don't see why anybody else feels arsed to actually listen to the guy; i don't see why anyone's really arsed to make it an issue.

I have always thought the US is a secular state?

	27-03-2004 23:06									#128
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quote: Not to atheists, Imran.

SOME atheists. I know plenty of atheists who think it is no big deal (you don't have to say it if you don't want to) and think this case is a waste of time.

	28-03-2004 00:09									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Not to atheists, Imran. SOME atheists. I know plenty of atheists who think it is no big deal (you don't have to say it if you don't want to) and think this case is a waste of time.

I am sure some black people thought that sitting at the back of the bus was no big deal. After all, it was a meaningless distinction enshrined in tradition.

	28-03-2004 00:11									#130
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quote: I am sure some black people thought that sitting at the back of the bus was no big deal.

Can you name any?

And I'm sure if there was a rule that you don't have to sit in the back if you don't want to, I'm sure plenty would say it was no big deal .

	28-03-2004 00:13									#131
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If the word 'God' is so insignificant, why do they put it in there in the first place? Does that imply that the oath is, too?

	28-03-2004 00:25									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I am sure some black people thought that sitting at the back of the bus was no big deal. Can you name any? And I'm sure if there was a rule that you don't have to sit in the back if you don't want to, I'm sure plenty would say it was no big deal .

I'm sure none of the other patrons would have batted an eye if someone had chosen to do just that.

	28-03-2004 00:38									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui (you don't have to say it if you don't want to)

pffffftttt.


When it is recited in schools, kids are de facto coerced into saying it.

	28-03-2004 00:38									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer pffffftttt. When it is recited in schools, kids are de facto coerced into saying it.

Er, no.

	28-03-2004 01:28									#135
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What does "one nation under God" mean? Is it true?

Are we a theocracy? No. Are all Americans subordinate to 1 God? No. Assuming it were ture, are we the only nation under God? No.

So why keep a lie in the pledge?

	28-03-2004 02:18									#136
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quote: When it is recited in schools, kids are de facto coerced into saying it.

When is the last time you've been in a school and seen kids recite a pledge!

	28-03-2004 02:24									#137
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SCROTUM

	28-03-2004 02:57									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: When it is recited in schools, kids are de facto coerced into saying it. When is the last time you've been in a school and seen kids recite a pledge!

This is true. It's pretty much a relic nowadays, and most kids don't recite it beyond the first few grades of elementary, anyway.

	28-03-2004 03:00									#139
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Not just that, but at least 50%, I'd say, aren't even saying words during the pledge... they are mumbling or just standing, saying nothing. I fail to see coercion when most kids don't even say it!

	28-03-2004 06:35									#140
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quote: When it is recited in schools, kids are de facto coerced into saying it.

Every last one of those kids has the absolute right to not say it. Doesn't sound like coercion to me.

	28-03-2004 07:25									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen Every last one of those kids has the absolute right to not say it. Doesn't sound like coercion to me.

???

That is a false dichotomy. Sure, they have the absolute right to not say it, but if the teacher is encouraging the class to stand up and say it, and most other kids are going along with it, the child will feel obligated or influenced to take part in the recital. That's influencing someone to do something they may not like or believe in. That's coercion.

	28-03-2004 09:38									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh One implication I read from the article, is that there is no religious education in American public schools? Is this true? How do American kids learn the differences between Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Budhism, Hindi etc if it is not allowed to be taught in schools? Perhaps we are seeing the root of the US's foreign policy problems...

It's called "Comparative Religions" - it's an elective course.

EDIT: oh, and we study things like the Ramayana, Taoism, Confucionism, Buddhism, Greek and Roman religions, and both Testaments in English class. Next year, I believe, we do Islam too. (Ironically, we haven't read a single piece of actually English literature in English class all year )

	28-03-2004 09:42									#143
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quote: Originally posted by cinch ??? That is a false dichotomy. Sure, they have the absolute right to not say it, but if the teacher is encouraging the class to stand up and say it, and most other kids are going along with it, the child will feel obligated or influenced to take part in the recital. That's influencing someone to do something they may not like or believe in. That's coercion.

Uh, no it isn't.

Moreover, you seem to be missing the posts pointing out (and I can second this) that virtually no one says anything during the pledge, and fewer actually say the words.

	28-03-2004 09:44									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Uh, no it isn't.

coercion

n 1: the act of compelling by force of authority

_________

"Alright, children, let's all stand and say the pledge of allegiance."

	28-03-2004 09:46									#145
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You just proved yourself wrong.

	28-03-2004 09:48									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Moreover, you seem to be missing the posts pointing out (and I can second this) that virtually no one says anything during the pledge, and fewer actually say the words.

(I answer this part of your post in a different post for... no reason.)

Anyway: I don't like that line of argument. It's akin to saying "Well, it's okay that my children are influenced to say 'I hate white people so much and I hope they die' every morning at school, because really, no one pays much attention to the recital... The mostly just mumble the worlds!".

Well, mumble or not, the words are still there, plain as day. Even if they're just being read aloud to the class: it's still getting into the back of their mind, like much of their other schoolwork.

2 + 2 = 4.

America is one nation under God.

Little Billy doesn't know the difference.

	28-03-2004 09:49									#147
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The point isn't that it isn't wrong, the point is that it is absolutely inconsequential.

	28-03-2004 09:50									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich You just proved yourself wrong.

So a teacher has no force of authority over the class?

The central authority figure is encouraging the children to stand and recite the pledge. They are not being literally FORCED, obviously, but they are being COMPELLED.

	28-03-2004 09:50									#149
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If no one's saying it then why even have time allotted for anyone "say it" in class in the first place? Just a waste of time if you think it has no coercive 'benefit', and shouldn't be in the classroom if it does.

	28-03-2004 10:05									#150
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quote: Originally posted by cinch So a teacher has no force of authority over the class? The central authority figure is encouraging the children to stand and recite the pledge. They are not being literally FORCED, obviously, but they are being COMPELLED.

Nope.