26-03-2004 11:20									#31
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hills + walls + fortified hoplite = defends at 6.75, better than A CAVALRY ATTACK.

cha-ching.

	26-03-2004 11:33									#32
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Togas, why have you not considered the placement of D1 from my diagram? It only misses out on a single bonus grass that your "blue" site uses, but like I said before, OUR SECOND CITY NEEDS TO BE AN 8 SHIELD PER TURN CITY to be able to pump out 3 turn Hoplites. Get city D1 up to size 4 and it will be a 3 turn-low cost unit pump and still be able to poop out a worker every 3rd unit or so.

Oh yeah, site D1 has an advantage over Tobacco and Blue in that with roads, units could get to AND from the city in one turn.

	26-03-2004 11:41									#33
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Getting D1 to 8spt is going to take a whole worker crew completely overhauling the landscape. Just add a few mines to Blue City and you'll have a much better city with 2fpt 2spt tiles in abundance.

Besides, we only need 7spt for 3 turn Hoplites. Get Blue to size 3, add 3 mines. Bingo. Much less work than what will be needed for D1.

--Togas

added: I think you mean D2 from your diagram. I prefer my site better (obviously, or else I wouldn't be writing this) because it has more access to sheilded grassland tiles and because I'm not all that concerned about moving units from Apolyton to another city in one turn. I don't feel that Apolyton will be our military core, I believe that we'll have a more central city serve that purpose. I feel that Apolyton will serve more as a worker/settler pump than a military camp.

	26-03-2004 12:00									#34
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i'm not going to quibble with you fine builder folks, but the fact that we only see ONE ivory scares me. that would imply that OTHER PEOPLE could have them as well.

i would recommend diving for the ivory city ASAP. 3rd or 4th city.

	26-03-2004 13:49									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX hills + walls + fortified hoplite = defends at 6.75, better than A CAVALRY ATTACK. cha-ching.

War

	26-03-2004 13:49									#36
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Yes, 7spt is what is needed for 3 turn-low cost unit pumps, but I am assuming 1 shield lost to corruption (even at a distance of 2 or 2.5). I don't have ET charts with me and I can't run a sim at work. We MIGHT loose one shield with D2 (you are correct as to my mistake of reference... and it my own map!!), I am positive we will loose one with "Blue" (thus the 8spt).

I think it is wrong to dismiss out of hand the ability to move troops from one city to another in one turn. We must think that we will have units in all cities. We do the chain effect. Build unit, move into new city for MP. MP unit that was there moves into city further out and so on. To break that chain up would mean we would have to use the lux slider more frequently (or worse, Entertainers/Tax/Sci).

You are fully correct that "Blue" could have one additional bonus grass available, but what would be the point? Shields 8 and 9 (after corruption) would be wasted anyway as our goal for the city is a 20 shield unit.

Additionally, our expansion into the grasslands there will put that single bonus grassland in D2 city radius eventually (with culture or city). And if we connect Iron or Horse, D2 would easily convert to a 4-turn high-cost unit pump.

Here is a breakdown of the benefits that each site posseses.
D2- lower corruption (this will be minimal, only one or two commerce), free aquaduct, one turn movement.

Blue- immediate access to one additional bonus grassland, could become high-cost unit pump quicker.

As a final point, we must remember that it takes less time to road/Irr a plain than it takes to road/mine a grass and they both end up as 2f 1s 1c.

	26-03-2004 20:09									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX i'm not going to quibble with you fine builder folks, but the fact that we only see ONE ivory scares me. that would imply that OTHER PEOPLE could have them as well. i would recommend diving for the ivory city ASAP. 3rd or 4th city.

The only team that could remotely compete with us right now for the Statue of Zeus would be PAL.

The other three are behind us despite some of them having what maybe considered better Civ Traits.

We can still work out a plan to prebuild and get there Uber, but a very good well planned core needs to be the priority. With the size of this map (Standard) and only 5 Civs, I seriously doubt if someone is going to compete with us for that one Ivory. But you are correct there should be other Ivory out there, somewhere.

We need to MOI guys to look at this in the long term plan.

	26-03-2004 22:36									#38
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I will not argue to strongly the benifits of the tobacco city over the one immediatly to its east (Togas' blue site). I have a slight preference for the tobacco, but nothing terrably strong.

If we choose the Togas Blue site (I think we need to vote, but lets talk some more prior to that) then my site #2 will have to be changed. With that being the case, I would vote for just skipping it, going to my site #3, #4 then back to the adjusted #2.

	27-03-2004 01:02									#39
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm not an expert on this point, although I do understand the plans, but perhaps we might come to a compromise between Togas' plan and GK's plan? Both are good plans and pretty equal, I think. Can you two try to merge the plans into one compromise?

EDIT: removed quote of Rothaerill with comment and pictures of sculptures of a scarcely dressed greek hoplite and nude greek hoplite.

Aidun

Last edited by Aidun on 27-03-2004 at 02:13

	27-03-2004 01:09									#40
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Perhaps we should run a couple of sims soon for each of the proposed second city sites. I have updated the sim map to the most recent turn, but I have not increased the sim to that turn yet so I haven't posted it. I won't have time tonight but hopefully tomorrow I can post that and anyone who wants to (including myself ) can run a simulation projecting out the cities. That way we have some hard numbers to work with.

And to Aidun...keep your nasty imagery to yourself.

	27-03-2004 01:28									#41
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well, maybe it was too shocking, I'll remove it.

Aidun

	27-03-2004 01:33									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun well, maybe it was too shocking, I'll remove it. Aidun

Hey wait a minute, what image?

	27-03-2004 02:16									#43
	Remove this text

Read my EDIT addition in my post above Roth's first and then decide if you want to see it. Nothing special though, just an ancient Greek cultural expression of which our civilization is so fond.

Aidun

	27-03-2004 02:19									#44
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Edited out for our viewing displeasure?

I must say I was considering the tobacco site but the discussion has me thinking of the possibilities. The blue site Togas brought up does seem to offer quite a nice place for the 2nd city.

	27-03-2004 03:00									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun well, maybe it was too shocking, I'll remove it. Aidun

Nah

Put it back. It was fine.

Good discussion here.

I'll hold my opinon for a bit still.

	27-03-2004 05:07									#46
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By your request I put it back.

The reason I posted these pictures was this formulation of Roth with my comment (not exactly the same, but with the same meaning):

quote: quote: so we're not caught with our Greek pants down. Roth, the Greeks didn't wear any pants, but tunics, or some sort of skirt-like clothes or they were just nude: http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=25295_hoplite.jpg http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=25295_hoplite2.jpg Pehaps a better saying is: "so we're not caught with our dicks sunbathing."

You see, just some famous ancient Greek cultural expression of which our civilization is so fond.

Aidun

	27-03-2004 06:29									#47
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The discovery of CDG's border ALOT closer than we anticipated makes me think we should make a stronger push for the Ivory. Perhaps we should reconsider Roth's Forest City, R1. We might not get the Ivory in our border with that city, but it would discourage CDG from using it.

	27-03-2004 06:31									#48
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I agree with Don. This ivory may be the only one in our area and it appears to be centrally located between our two civs.

--Togas

	27-03-2004 06:53									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun quote: By your request I put it back. The reason I posted these pictures was this formulation of Roth with my comment (not exactly the same, but with the same meaning): Roth, the Greeks didn't wear any pants, but tunics, or some sort of skirt-like clothes or they were just nude: http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=25295_hoplite.jpg http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=25295_hoplite2.jpg Pehaps a better saying is: "so we're not caught with our dicks sunbathing." You see, just some famous ancient Greek cultural expression of which our civilization is so fond. Aidun

Sorry if you misunderstood me Aidun. I didn't mean to censor you I was just making a joke.

	27-03-2004 06:54									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I agree with Don. This ivory may be the only one in our area and it appears to be centrally located between our two civs. --Togas

I agree as well. Naturally since it was my first suggestion anyway, but this new development puts even more importance into that city. We need a city that can get a barracks done quickly (with forest chops) and start pumping veteran hoplites for our nation's defense.

	27-03-2004 06:57									#51
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Or vet warriors to "Choke" CDG.

	27-03-2004 06:57									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Or vet warriors to "Choke" CDG.

Very much a possibility too.

	27-03-2004 13:17									#53
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Our second city just might be CDG's Capital...

	30-03-2004 04:17									#54
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My main objections to D1 & D2 is that they combine to completely crowd out Appolyton's production considering the nice river (free aquaduct) it has especally when combined with the burning of shielded grassland.

quote: Now in my two suggestions (D1 and D2), both locations are capable of getting to and from in a single turn and will be easily defendable. Both will also be productive military cities with some irrigation and mining (this is also true with R1 and R2) and both would be able to use the most amount of tiles in the shortest amount of time with the least amount of work. Additionally, if we so choose to take a "camp" mentality to our city placement, both D1 and D2 would be ideal locations.

	30-03-2004 04:21									#55
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Hum, thinking it over, this is probably a better plan than mine.

Yeah, I was thinking somewhat too much about industrial era (post Hospitals.)

quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill With just taking a quick look I would agree that if we do go with the forest tile as our next city site that the ivory site and the sugar plantation in the east would be good city sites. However I would move the southern port site to 2-3-3 of Apolyton and add two other cities, one of them 3-3-6-6-6 of Apolyton and the other on the coast 3-3-3-3-3-3-6 of Apolyton. This allows for greater use of the more useful bonus grassland tiles. Using just the southern port joncnunn had stated would leave us with a great many tiles, including several bonus grasslands, that would be unusable by any city for a while. One thing I think we need to think about with city placement is not necessarily trying to go for optimal city placement, but rather go for a city layout that affords us the ability to use the most useful tiles when we need them (i.e. early on). Our goal isn't to create a big empire with grand cities, but to merely survive. For that we need more cities working good tiles producing military units for our defense and a possible attack on another civ.

	30-03-2004 04:24									#56
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Agreed, port city should be after ivory (#3) and maybe after #4 as well.

quote: Originally posted by Togas We could skip the port city and go straight to cities 3 and 4 on this diagram. I'd really like us to get some floodplain cities up early. They'll aid our expansion. But do note that we should build a solid military city FIRST, that being Rhoth's second city (my city 1) --Togas

	01-04-2004 03:59									#57
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Disagree with the Tobacco site because it would choke off Apolyton's production. That 2 diagonal tile from the capital is more useful for non freshwater sources where there's not a free aquaduct.

I rather not chance losing Ivory.

quote: Originally posted by Dominae First: Tobacco Second: Apolyton 633 (R2 on Donegeal's map) Third: North or West of Apolyton (Rivers or Wines) IMO, the Tobacco site is clearly the best option for a second city. It's only 2 tiles from the capital, it's coastal, it's on a River, it accesses the Cattle and some Bonus Grasslands, it's easily defensible. The two priorities for the second site should be Food then Commerce (to rush for Philosohpy). The Ivory is certainly important, but throwing a city over there right away is wasteful. The Statue of Zeus can be prebuilt with any other Wonder (like the Mausoleum...Philosophy again!); there's no need to hook up Ivory ASAP. Other than act as a guard for the Ivory, a city out there would be wholly unproductive for quite a while, due to Corruption and distance for Workers to travel. In the location suggested, a Temple would have to built to hook up the Ivory in the first place, quite an expense at this stage (especially considering the cost of research Ceremonial Burial). If the worry is to lose the Ivory to some other team, the solution is more scouting in the eastern direction, and the posting of a lookout on the Mountains tile due North of the Ivory. With these two measures it's highly unlikely that any other team would claim the Ivory first. Dominae

	01-04-2004 04:02									#58
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I think the cows will be fully used by Appolyton itself.
The grassland + shield tiles are more suitable for micromanaging swamping between cities than the cow.

quote: Originally posted by Togas If we want to build a city close enough to use the cattle in Apolyton --Togas

	01-04-2004 07:26									#59
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The cow is only needed for 2 of the 4 turns during Poly's growth cycle. (With the granary, it only needs 10 food; +2, +2, +3, +3 is all that's needed to grow in 4.) Another city with a granary could become as fast a grower as poly if it could access the cattle.

	01-04-2004 08:06									#60
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True, but city #2 will be more a war production center, or possibly a prebuild site for a wonder. Using the cow is still a valid idea, but this city will not be getting a granairy for a while. First build will be a warrior, then we decide between hoplite, more warriors, or a barracks. Occasionally, it will pop out a worker to keep the population in check, but our city #3 near the floodpain will be our primary site for settlers. City #1 will be a general purpose city until we get enough other specialized cities up and running.