27-03-2004 13:30									#1
	What ARE wonders, and consequences Put an end to popups!

I guess that many see wonders as buildings. Personally, I don't think that all buildings considered as wonders are producing anything themselves. This is why I would say that a wonder is many many things at once:
- Building
- Cultural orientation
- Organization to do this wonder (learning how to build, logistics...)
- The effects it has on the environment (some wonders attract certain other things)

Just as to build the pyramids, it meant geometric knowledge, a society oriented towards work, etc. Or if we look at Wall Street, it means not only Wall Street but also a micro-culture around it, all the business infrastructure around, alot of specialists with given specific skills, etc.

The consequence of this? Well if your wonder gets destroyed or its city taken, the effects will be dependant on what we consider a "wonder" is and which wonder it is exactly. It may even fade with time, instead of disapearing (depending on the wonder, here also). It brings quite a few questions about the effects and properties of wonders.

Last edited by Trifna on 27-03-2004 at 13:36

	27-03-2004 23:59									#2
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I sorta took this up in the Wonder "construction" thread. I voted "Else" cause it depends on the wonder. The pyramids fall under the building and knowledge categories, while the sistine chapel falls under the building and cultural orientation category. Darwin voyage and leonardos workshop are in NO way buildings. noone built any of those. they were projects undertaken by individual men for personal interest.
What I wanted to vote was "all of the above (including banana)" but that wasnt an option. some wonders should have an instant effect, others should have a limited effect and some should have a (near)permanent effect. And many of the wonders' effects have to be seriously remade. the pyramids had no granary-effect at all. and certainly not after the ancient era. leonardos workshop is in no way related to weapons upgrade. the upgrade cost is a cost for building new weapons and training your soldiers with them. leonardos workshop should instead be like darwins voyage, free tech(s).

I could make a list of all the wonders I can think of and a "realistic" reasonable effect, but noone would use it so why bother. If only firaxis would hire me as a freelance creative consultant I'd make them billionaires!

	28-03-2004 00:45									#3
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I voted building, but I think that it can more precisely be defined as an effort. That is, a wonder is a monumental task that takes the energy and focus of a great deal of people (or, in crude game terms, a huge number of shields) to complete.

I think it is both the result of gaining new knowledge (ie, tech requirements) and the cause of even more knowledge (hence the bonuses that it provides).

Put in these terms, both monumental constructions like the Pyramids and Herculean tasks like Magellan's Voyage, or even the research involved in things like the Theory of Evolution or Cure for Cancer, easily fit within the definition of wonder.

Heck, even gaining Universal Sufferage fits, as (in RL, anyway) it took a huge amount of effort, required the abstract ideals of liberty before it could be possible, and resulted in a society with higher active participation and a public with a greater feeling of ownership of it (reflected, again crudely, in the game by reduced WW).

	28-03-2004 04:05									#4
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I agree. A wonder is a great effort, but not necessarily a production effort. And I want the game to show that. You should get some wonders from prod, and others based on other things. And the Universal suffrage is a typical wonder which effects diminish with time.
People take such things for granted. and most democracies have uni.suff. so it should be a small wonder not a great one. perhaps a small bonus to the first civ to build it... but it shouldnt be "built"! It should be a decision made, kinda like switching governments given to you to decide at a certain point (tech researched maybe?) and youd gain some disadvantages and gain some advantages.
Maybe womens rights will lead to slower population growths and higher GNP as women join the workforce and can contribute more freely to society...

	28-03-2004 04:06									#5
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gnp being produciton and trade.

	28-03-2004 07:12									#6
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I think the point of a Wonder is that once built, it cannot be repeated. This is not to say that it can't be imitated (the world has been circumnavigated many times, women can vote in most countries, and the Library of Congress is several orders of magnitude larger than the Great Library), just that a repeat wonder does not have the same impact as the original.

I agree that shields may not be the best measure of what it takes to make a wonder, but in this regard I think abstract is better. I think some way to hurry wonders with caravan gold or GLs is good, but I'd rather see it as a costly extra (done out of desperation) than as an easy way to "buy" wonders, especially at later stages of the game.

By and large, I like how wonders work currently. I agree that some of the effects of wonders are ridiculous, but no more so than, say, War Elephants becoming available with the discovery of Polytheism in civ 2. Building the Pyramids solely for the glory of mighty Pharoah doesn't have nearly the game-play appeal as free granaries, now does it?

	28-03-2004 09:57									#7
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The point i was making was that the universal suffrage wonder had great ramifications when it was granted, but its effects diminished with time as it became commonplace in many countries people took it for granted.
And the pyramids, definately a wonder, very important, had nothing to do with food storage, there should be some other effect. like reducing unhappy citizens maybe or expanding military police limit (look how mighty pharao is, kinda thing maybe). They just shouldnt be used as a big barn. and the effects should end sooner. whatever the effect the pyramids had on ancient egypt it is now only a matter of national pride and a tourist attraction. taken care of by generating culture and cash, covered in conquests. just dont give me everlasting granaries because I have a triangular heap of bricks made as tombs or whatnot 5000 years ago.

I dont think any wonder should last "forever". they should all become obsolete, except maybe for the ones built in the last stages of the game since they wont be active too long. maybe maggellans voyage could make your ships "see" further and/or grant you a considerable map of the oceans based from a possible route that a ship could sail round the world. you keep the map but the bonus to your ships should be shortlived as the age of discovery initiated by this great undertaking simply didnt last more than max 50-100 years. In civ2, it didnt become obsolete at all which was laughable. sure, spain has faster ships today cause some drunken old sailor managed to sail round the wordl 500 years ago. its those kind of things I want gone. and yes polytheism = elephants, ridiculous! base it instead on having acces to ivory (elephants) and maybe something else. I just want things to be reasonable and realistic. especially the wonder construction cause its such a big part of the game and adds so much flavor.

	28-03-2004 11:13									#8
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Yes, the polytheism thing really bugged me for a long time. That and labour unions giving mech infantry. It actually kept me from playing civ 2, way back when. Eventually I got over it. I think the less ridiculous the better, but I'm willing to sacrifice some realism for the sake of gameplay.

	05-04-2004 02:07									#9
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I suggested the concept of Wonders costing Research Beakers, instead of shields in some instances. Also, make it so certain wonders cannot be destroyed by taking a city. Destroying Universal Suffrage, Cure for Cancer, Longevity, Battlefield Medicine is just silly in its concept.

	05-04-2004 10:04									#10
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I personally think there should be "production" wonders (Pyramids, Hoover Dam), and "science" wonders (cure for cancer, Sun Tzu...). Basically, these "science" wonders are dead-end techs whose only purpose is a bonus similar to the wonders as we know them. These techs could not be tradable, and only the first one who discovers it benefits from it.

The difference between a science-wonder and the other kind of wonders is that a science wonder is an effort for your civilization as a whole, not for only one city.

	23-10-2004 22:44									#11
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I like the idea of a science wonder.

	21-05-2005 07:53									#12
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Wonders a fun intermediate carrot and stick to keep you interested throughout the game.

	21-05-2005 09:49									#13
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like 8 of the 12 or 13 posts in this thread started with "I"- just found that odd.

Wonders are generally an effort, like the internet isn't just stored in some building somewhere it is all around us thanks to the wonderfull world of wireless.

But what wonders really are, are little movies you get to see when you build them