30-03-2004 08:03									#1
	My Pet peeves with civ 3 conquests Remove this text

Things are hacking me off, most which could be easily fixed or optioned -

like, you miss a wonder and it won't let you save the production until another wonder becomes available - leading to the 500 coin granary.

and as soon as an ai civ launches a spaceship the game is over, WTF?

Seems like the ai is calibrated so basically the ai civs are always ahead of you no matter what you do,

The strategic map doesn't scroll. That one is really annoying if your civ cuts across the edges of the map. It makes it hard to develop strategy as well by stopping you from looking at the map from different angles.

You don't get any real sense that if you change settings like tax or luxuries that it has an appreciable effect on your civ

Some of the government types seem quite similar, it's hard to see how monarchy differs from feudalism, communism from fascism, I can't tell the difference.

The game is almost unplayable at higher levels

The game doesn't seem to accelerate at the end - unlike civ 1 and 2 where the end game was exciting and every turn and every decision in a turn seemed to count and could influence the outcome.

Tech stealing and espionage is way too expensive. These were things that once evened up the ai's cheating advantage.

Cities changing sides happens too easily under the culture rules - causing chaos with invasions.

Some of the short game options destroy the civ rather than have it fall into your lap once the victory options are satisfied. How dumb is that?

Invading units are hamstrung on movement, turning every invasion into the hundred or thousand years war.

Units must be fired individually - I'm getting RSI from just firing my cannon before every attack.

The zoom options are limited to 2. Why? Civ 2 had multiple zooms.



Talk about kill the fun. I hope civ 4 gets back to the spirit of civ 1 and 2. Or maybe we have to wait for a whole new franchise.

	30-03-2004 08:33									#2
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Nice to hear from you, especially about that 'lack of zoom' feature. However, the line forms in the rear.

	30-03-2004 09:26									#3
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That's a lot of complains... do you have also an list of "good things of civ3", or "I love the Civ3 day" ?



However, I disagree in the culture in war issue. I like it, it makes harder for warmongers the invasions, giving the cuilders a chance to turn back the tide.
Also some from your list can be fixed by the editor, but it would be nice to have then in the regular "official" game.

	30-03-2004 09:51									#4
	Re: My Pet peeves with civ 3 conquests Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Things are hacking me off, most which could be easily fixed or optioned -

Most of those are supposed to favor the AI, so that it won't be as helpless as in Civ1 or 2. But admittedly, you'll come to enjoy them only when you'll beat the AI repeatedly on Regent difficulty.

quote: like, you miss a wonder and it won't let you save the production until another wonder becomes available - leading to the 500 coin granary.

Make sure you have the tech to make the next wonder then Or produce a palace (very expansive) or a useful small wonder (always good since you can rarely rush them).

quote: and as soon as an ai civ launches a spaceship the game is over, WTF?

The Space Race is more straightforward in Civ3 than in Civ2: it ends when the ship launches, not when it arrives.

quote: Seems like the ai is calibrated so basically the ai civs are always ahead of you no matter what you do,

Wrong. That's because you're not adept enough with the game. In my games (Monarch / Emperor levels), I end up being ahead of the AI from the industrial era on.

quote: The strategic map doesn't scroll. That one is really annoying if your civ cuts across the edges of the map. It makes it hard to develop strategy as well by stopping you from looking at the map from different angles.

Indeed, this is stupid. We should have complained about it sooner, Firaxis may have done something about it then
Well, hopefully they'll do it for Civ4

quote: You don't get any real sense that if you change settings like tax or luxuries that it has an appreciable effect on your civ

Well, it does what is written on the box: it changes tax and luxuries... I don't understand what exactly you would expect

quote: Some of the government types seem quite similar, it's hard to see how monarchy differs from feudalism, communism from fascism, I can't tell the difference.

The differences are subtle: they have to do with corruption levels, war weariness (which is implemented with much more subtlety than in Civ2), production bonuses, free support of units, military police etc... That's not like the obvious difference between democracy and communism in Civ2. Yet the game is deeper this way.

quote: The game is almost unplayable at higher levels

They have created the "Sid" difficulty in Conquests because many people felt the game was too easy on Deity

quote: The game doesn't seem to accelerate at the end - unlike civ 1 and 2 where the end game was exciting and every turn and every decision in a turn seemed to count and could influence the outcome.

Well, I guess you weren't in a major modern war then

quote: Tech stealing and espionage is way too expensive.

Indeed, nobody uses them, making them effectively useless features

quote: Cities changing sides happens too easily under the culture rules - causing chaos with invasions.

It is possible to thwart culture flips with a single click at the setup of the game. Or you can change your perceptions of things, and accept culture flips as a new strategic opportunity. To avoid it, put enough troops in the risky city, until you gow enough culture on your own there. And make sure no foreign city (of the same Civ of the conquered city) is next to it.

quote: Some of the short game options destroy the civ rather than have it fall into your lap once the victory options are satisfied. How dumb is that?

It is completely dumb, but these options are rather thought for the hasty MP player in mind. For a quite deep gameplay, you should avoid short game options at all costs.

quote: Invading units are hamstrung on movement, turning every invasion into the hundred or thousand years war.

I actually think it is great. I hated the pixel pushing of sending hundreds of howitzers in one turn in Civ2. How many times did I conquer Eurasia in one or two turns with this technique
Units must be fired individually - I'm getting RSI from just firing my cannon before every attack.

The zoom options are limited to 2. Why? Civ 2 had multiple zooms.

quote: Talk about kill the fun. I hope civ 4 gets back to the spirit of civ 1 and 2. Or maybe we have to wait for a whole new franchise.

	30-03-2004 10:02									#5
	Re: My Pet peeves with civ 3 conquests Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Things are hacking me off, most which could be easily fixed or optioned - like, you miss a wonder and it won't let you save the production until another wonder becomes available - leading to the 500 coin granary. quote: that was the case in civ2 as well, it is sort of the loser prize, I think it would be best to have lots of small wonders so that production is not completely wasted though and as soon as an ai civ launches a spaceship the game is over, WTF? quote: I liked the civ2 way a bit better myself, but you can sort of see it can't you? Seems like the ai is calibrated so basically the ai civs are always ahead of you no matter what you do, quote: I kicked the computer's ass in a game on emperor where I only had one city and could not move outside of my cultural radius I was an age ahead of the computer by the modern era, and was ahead of it since the end of the ancient era The strategic map doesn't scroll. That one is really annoying if your civ cuts across the edges of the map. It makes it hard to develop strategy as well by stopping you from looking at the map from different angles. quote: agree here You don't get any real sense that if you change settings like tax or luxuries that it has an appreciable effect on your civ quote: yah it does, take a look at the first advisor screen Some of the government types seem quite similar, it's hard to see how monarchy differs from feudalism, communism from fascism, I can't tell the difference. quote: definitely a large difference, fascism from monarchy doesn't seem like a big difference though The game is almost unplayable at higher levels quote: in what way? The game doesn't seem to accelerate at the end - unlike civ 1 and 2 where the end game was exciting and every turn and every decision in a turn seemed to count and could influence the outcome. quote: I think that civ3 has the same endgame issues as civ2 (which is why I rarely finish single player civ games) Tech stealing and espionage is way too expensive. These were things that once evened up the ai's cheating advantage. quote: maybe they aren't needed anymore? Cities changing sides happens too easily under the culture rules - causing chaos with invasions. quote: rarely happens to me anymore, happened back prePtW Some of the short game options destroy the civ rather than have it fall into your lap once the victory options are satisfied. How dumb is that? quote: I can see the argument both ways here, it makes more sense for you to get the civ, it helps the game be more fun if the civ is just destroyed Invading units are hamstrung on movement, turning every invasion into the hundred or thousand years war. quote: problem from civ2/civ1 Units must be fired individually - I'm getting RSI from just firing my cannon before every attack. quote: I dislike this for the bombard also, you can attack at once with your attacking units The zoom options are limited to 2. Why? Civ 2 had multiple zooms. quote: agree Talk about kill the fun. I hope civ 4 gets back to the spirit of civ 1 and 2. Or maybe we have to wait for a whole new franchise.

I hope so to, this one is alright now I think though

not noticeably better than civ2 though

Jon Miller

	30-03-2004 10:06									#6
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It is different. Better is in the eye of the beholder.

	30-03-2004 10:14									#7
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What's this scroll complaint? It seems that Bucephalus is referring to horizontal scrolling, which, in my experience, has always been able to scroll. I almost want to say there's a checkbox to enable x-wrapping somewhere, but couldn't begin to tell you where, and always thought the default was yes on x-wrapping and no on y-wrapping.

	30-03-2004 12:02									#8
	Re: My Pet peeves with civ 3 conquests Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse like, you miss a wonder and it won't let you save the production until another wonder becomes available - leading to the 500 coin granary. and as soon as an ai civ launches a spaceship the game is over, WTF? Seems like the ai is calibrated so basically the ai civs are always ahead of you no matter what you do,

I am not in agreement with most of your complaints, but I will just address the first ones.

This is as it should be, you should not be able to tak a gamble and lose and not pay a price.

Yes you lose. You can keep playing if you want, so I don't see the problem, other than you lost.

At what levels is that. I only run into it at Deity and Sid. They need the help or it will be too easy.

	30-03-2004 12:08									#9
	Re: My Pet peeves with civ 3 conquests Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Alot of these are indespensible improvements that give 3 the strategic depth that makes it a step up from the previous versions, a few I agree on, and then there's this one;

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse and as soon as an ai civ launches a spaceship the game is over, WTF?

Talk about Firaxis totally dropping the ball. Not only does this remove a strategic element (my most memorable games from previous versions involve mad dashes for the enemy capital and a recall), but it makes the game 'story' more lame:

"You may have destroyed our capital, but at least we die secure in the knowledge that a few of our people are probably going to make it to a nearby star where they might find a planet able to sustain life and maybe even be able set up an industrial base strong enough to repel your inevitable followup ships..."

	30-03-2004 12:53									#10
	Re: My Pet peeves with civ 3 conquests Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The strategic map doesn't scroll. That one is really annoying if your civ cuts across the edges of the map. It makes it hard to develop strategy as well by stopping you from looking at the map from different angles.

You're talking about the minimap in the bottom-left corner right? They got it right in the first Civ, there the minimap was centered on your capitol, it even looked like your capitol was on the equator until you discovered on of the poles.

quote: The game doesn't seem to accelerate at the end - unlike civ 1 and 2 where the end game was exciting and every turn and every decision in a turn seemed to count and could influence the outcome.

Try to play against other humans then

	30-03-2004 16:15									#11
	Re: My Pet peeves with civ 3 conquests Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Things are hacking me off, most which could be easily fixed or optioned - like, you miss a wonder and it won't let you save the production until another wonder becomes available - leading to the 500 coin granary. and as soon as an ai civ launches a spaceship the game is over, WTF? Seems like the ai is calibrated so basically the ai civs are always ahead of you no matter what you do, The strategic map doesn't scroll. That one is really annoying if your civ cuts across the edges of the map. It makes it hard to develop strategy as well by stopping you from looking at the map from different angles. You don't get any real sense that if you change settings like tax or luxuries that it has an appreciable effect on your civ Some of the government types seem quite similar, it's hard to see how monarchy differs from feudalism, communism from fascism, I can't tell the difference. The game is almost unplayable at higher levels The game doesn't seem to accelerate at the end - unlike civ 1 and 2 where the end game was exciting and every turn and every decision in a turn seemed to count and could influence the outcome. Tech stealing and espionage is way too expensive. These were things that once evened up the ai's cheating advantage. Cities changing sides happens too easily under the culture rules - causing chaos with invasions. Some of the short game options destroy the civ rather than have it fall into your lap once the victory options are satisfied. How dumb is that? Invading units are hamstrung on movement, turning every invasion into the hundred or thousand years war. Units must be fired individually - I'm getting RSI from just firing my cannon before every attack. The zoom options are limited to 2. Why? Civ 2 had multiple zooms. Talk about kill the fun. I hope civ 4 gets back to the spirit of civ 1 and 2. Or maybe we have to wait for a whole new franchise.

you can switch to another wonder (if you are able to build another wonder). If not I suggest not building a granary, but build another expensive city improvement such as cathedral or colliseum.

the ai spaceship. Yeah I guess I can see your point. I never play that late anymore, so it's not a major concern for me. I'm sick of the game by the industrial age anways.

ai civs ahead of you? Depends on what difficulty level you play at.

strategic map. I admit I don't use that much. I'd have to look again to see what you are talking about.

I don't have too many complaints about the sliders.

I kind of agree with you about the goverment types. Remember, the original civ3 didn't have those other 2 types.

I agree about the higher difficulty levels, but I'm not the best at civ3. So that may be why.

modern age blows. I agree.

tech stealing and espionage is very expensive. Although I have never used them, so it doesn't concern me. Even in civ2 I never stole techs (I conquered them).

I haven't had too much trouble with culture flips. I have no problem with the current system.

some of those game options are for scenarios. they may be a bit unrealistic. oh well.

units are hamstrung on movement. They did this to slow down conuerers. This is mostly good in my opnion, with a few negatives.

Isn't there a new feature to mass bombard? I thought there was. maybe not.

multiple zooms would be nice.

	30-03-2004 22:08									#12
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Check out Rhye's of Civilization

	30-03-2004 23:03									#13
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I disagree with almost all those 'pet peeves' of yours. But since others have already replied more eloquently than I could, I'll just agree to their comments, especially Spiffor's.
Complaining about the AI always being ahead of you is the lamest one. You only like games when you're ahead all the time and you'll be sure to win without any effort? Play on Chieftain level then...

	31-03-2004 03:36									#14
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I think the biggest thing people are pointing to here is the need to make the mental shift from civ2 to civ3. There are many shared elements, but they are different games.

So... your criticisms are valid, but try to set them aside and play civ3 without your civ2 preconceptions. You'll still find plenty of things to gripe about (like the non-scrolling mini-map), but they'll be real deficiencies, not just differences from civ2.

	31-03-2004 06:07									#15
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Why do I feel like I'm talking to a 12 year old who never played civ 1 or 2.......

I also note Joncha that other posters share many of my concerns and irritations.

	31-03-2004 06:33									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Why do I feel like I'm talking to a 12 year old who never played civ 1 or 2....... I also note Joncha that other posters share many of my concerns and irritations.

Maybe that is the problem. Your perception is a bit off. I am 58 and played them.

From what I have seen you have not played CivIII all that long, so it could be you have not gained the experience and skills needed to play it well.

But it may be you just want to get a rise out of people, I don't know. On the other hand CivII was just a very easy game to beat at all levels. I loved the game and use to rate it as either #1 or #2. It was great and fun, but it has many significant flaws.

BTW I still have Civ1 and Civ2. So any way I hope you find another game you enjoy.

	31-03-2004 06:37									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Why do I feel like I'm talking to a 12 year old who never played civ 1 or 2....... I also note Joncha that other posters share many of my concerns and irritations.

never played civ1, but I have played civ2 extensively.

There are many things that irritated me about civ2 that I'm glad are gone. There is a reason why I never play civ2 anymore. Army support is one of them. Having units supported by cities is annoying. If you had a small city in civ2 in democracy you couldn't take your caravel out exploring. Because it had an attack of 1 it was considered a combat unit, and not having that unit in the city radious caused unhappiness problem. I understand it is better to have better developed cities by that point, but that isn't always possible. I should be able to have small and medium sized cities in democracy.

And the lack of borders was really annoying.

But civ3 introduced some new problems unfortunately. I won't get into them- they are discussed above.

maybe eventually we will have the perfect civ game. I just noticed in Computer Gaming World that civ4 is on the pipeline. I wonder how that one will turn out...

	31-03-2004 07:21									#18
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Hopefully civ 4 will have the best features of civ 2 and 3.

	31-03-2004 07:46									#19
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Unfortunately try two score and eight years. Anyway, your complaints are two and half years old. Quite stale I'd say. And good deal of us, shall I say moved on to address what might be patched or modded. However, I will confess, going to a funeral may be more promising some days.

	31-03-2004 07:49									#20
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AS far as betting on CIV 4 goes, I'd much rather win the Lotto and build mine own game from scratch.

	31-03-2004 08:05									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Antrine Anyway, your complaints are two and half years old. Quite stale I'd say.

Not if you were one of the many who skipped civ3 because it didn't have MP and you weren't prepared to pay for it.

I mention the above because I thought some might be amenable to patching or modding. Not so?

It doesn't hurt to remind the game developers of the bloopers.

	31-03-2004 08:10									#22
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Well, actually there is some good news for MP with this Patch 1.20 now in the pipeline. And that community is I believe excited about it.

	31-03-2004 08:12									#23
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I haven't tried MP yet - doesn't seem very viable with so many units generated in each game.

	31-03-2004 08:19									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I haven't tried MP yet - doesn't seem very viable with so many units generated in each game.

Play on smaller maps with fast play options (they're good in MP, they just suck in SP), and it should work.

	31-03-2004 17:14									#25
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I actually do tend to agree with a lot of Alexander's points. In fact for me it's bigger - an almost intangible problem with C3C - that makes it just not that interesting.

I would add:

Unfulfilling interactions with other civs, including no real lasting alliances

Trading system, though good in theory, mostly just pisses me off - civ leaders are unreasonable much of the time.

Still too much micromanagement needed (although if I do automate everything possible then there's not much left to think about - not enough "big picture" aspects. )

Late game play is just too slow and tedious for me.

I've had three or four games, out of maybe 30, where it has gotten really interesting. I think in CIV 2, and certainly in alpha centauri it felt interesting at least half the time.

There are definitely some great things about C3C, but I welcome an overhaul if it gets at some of these basic issues.

	31-03-2004 18:56									#26
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Yes there are many many issues

yet there seem to be alot of things with the patches....

I wonder how many patches this game will have before Civ IV?

	31-03-2004 19:57									#27
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I expect only one more (after 1.20f), and not a big one. Basically, I suppose the game will be in its definitive form when the all-in-one box will come out this fall. Unless there is a major bug that makes the all-in-one box really unplayable, I think they won't update it anymore.

IIUC, the patches are currently developed by one programmer (Jesse Smith), who does it only part-time. Apparently, there are talks about a patch past the 1.20f, but Jesse made it clear very few resources are now used at developing new patches.

	01-04-2004 02:49									#28
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I have issues with Conquests, but almost none of them match up with AH's list. Further, it's pretty clear from AH's list he hasn't played CivIII very much. Some of the stuff in there just doesn't make sense to me, probably because I know the game a lot better, due to the insane amount of time I've spent playing it.

I played Civ I and Civ II. I think CivIII is a superior game, despite some irritating flaws. To me, those flaws are things like the screwed up AI worker routines/city spacing (which was pretty well set up by the last patch of PTW, but reverted horribly in Conquests), the out-and-out bugs (Science GA, war via AI accidentally attacking submarines)... stuff like that.

-Arrian

	01-04-2004 03:31									#29
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In terms of difficulty, Civ3 is superior to Civ2. In terms of fun and game atmosphere, Civ2 is lightyears ahead. Civ3 isn't even a worthy adversary.

	01-04-2004 04:47									#30
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That is my sentiments Sir Ralph. Civ2 was lots of fun, Civ3 is more of a challenge. Civ3 is not so much fun as it is satisfying and provide a sense of accomplishment. I never felt I accomplished anything in Civ2, but fun. Sort of like Diablo2.