30-03-2004 09:30									#1
	CDG Tech Deal Increase Your PM Length

Togas posted the following in the CGD FA thread:

quote: . This is what CDG has proposed (as posted by GK, but I'm reposting on it here): They trade us WC + Writing (11) in exchange for BW, IW, Pottery (11). One team then researching Code of Laws. The other researches Philosophy (or, alternately, researches a cheap tech THEN Philosophy). Code of Laws must be finished first and gifted to the Philosophy team. They then finish Philosophy and receive REPUBLIC as the free tech. This tech is then gifted to the other team. This would make the most expensive early tech, Republic, free to both of us, and avoid the competition over Philosophy that usually results. It could save us both a hell of a lot of research. ... Frankly, this one tech scheme really shifts the balance in favor of a cooperative policy towards CDG. I recommend that if we cannot find any CLEAR targets of opportunity to attack in CDGland, that we abort our sneak attack and embrace cooperation and beat these guys anytime before they get their berserkers. --Togas .

So - this poll basically asks - are you in favor of such a deal, which implies a short-term co-operative approach with CDG.

No would imply continuing to enegage them in chit chat but pursuing our aggressive plan of action.

Yes!
No!
Man - that's waaaay too many techs to keep track of. Let's just smoke a banana.

	30-03-2004 09:39									#2
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I definately think we should push for Poly to get Philosophy if we decide to do the trade. It will give us an additional chance at a SGL.

I'm undecided on what to do but smoking the big banana sounds quite good.

We need more info and need to develop a long term plan for war or peace. As long as we can secure the ivory I'm all for getting to Republic together. Our team can develop cities quite well and we'll still have the advantage esp w/ Ancient Horsemen and Hoplites.

Another question would also be is if we want these guys in the next tournament. Our goal is to win this one and the next and we should put ourselves in the best position. I don't know how the others play since this is my first demogame but some of you do know the players.

Is it in our best interest to keep CDG around for the next game or not?

	30-03-2004 09:55									#3
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quote: Originally posted by SirOsis I definately think we should push for Poly to get Philosophy if we decide to do the trade. It will give us an additional chance at a SGL. I'm undecided on what to do but smoking the big banana sounds quite good. We need more info and need to develop a long term plan for war or peace. As long as we can secure the ivory I'm all for getting to Republic together. Our team can develop cities quite well and we'll still have the advantage esp w/ Ancient Horsemen and Hoplites. Another question would also be is if we want these guys in the next tournament. Our goal is to win this one and the next and we should put ourselves in the best position. I don't know how the others play since this is my first demogame but some of you do know the players. Is it in our best interest to keep CDG around for the next game or not?

I don't know how they would be in this game, but in the first IDG CDG didn't have the greatest of MOI or military minds. Their ouster was likely helped a bit by "other reasons".

If we did keep them around for tech help etc. then we might just be able to forge ahead in that respect. I'm still undecided however. If we did off them right now then there would only be one more civ to go before this game would be over.

	30-03-2004 09:56									#4
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I'm still waiting for GF to post some more Info on the people at CDG. If they are not too well versed in the early game Military, then we are "safe" to wait on eliminating them later. If on the other hand, they are very good fighting early game wars, maybe we should not do this trade.

But at this point, it will be interesting on either way that we go.

E_T

	30-03-2004 10:04									#5
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quote: Originally posted by SirOsis Another question would also be is if we want these guys in the next tournament. Our goal is to win this one and the next and we should put ourselves in the best position. I don't know how the others play since this is my first demogame but some of you do know the players. Is it in our best interest to keep CDG around for the next game or not?

On that note, it's in our best interest to remove the best competition now, and bring along the teams that are not strong competition to win the whole thing.

If I could pick any two teams to remove in the first round, one would be GWT without a doubt. The other probably PAL. PAL scares me.

--Togas

	30-03-2004 10:07									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Togas On that note, it's in our best interest to remove the best competition now, and bring along the teams that are not strong competition to win the whole thing. If I could pick any two teams to remove in the first round, one would be GWT without a doubt. The other probably PAL. PAL scares me. --Togas

On the other hand...wouldn't it be more satisfying to go up against the best competition and win? For however much GWT has annoyed us in the other game they have also proved that they have good civ players. As to PAL, I really don't know them other than Fried-Psitalon, but they do have a certain reputation.

	30-03-2004 10:34									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill On the other hand...wouldn't it be more satisfying to go up against the best competition and win? For however much GWT has annoyed us in the other game they have also proved that they have good civ players. As to PAL, I really don't know them other than Fried-Psitalon, but they do have a certain reputation.

We are going up against the best. If we eliminate the better groups early we'll be in a better position later. Keep your eye on the prize!

I really shouldn't have smoked that banana. Reminds me of the Moulin Rouge in Amsterdam.

	30-03-2004 10:43									#8
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I agree with Rhoth here... though I hope we will be cutthroat in many ways in this first round, I don't want to off teams solely because we don't want to face them in the next round. I would be lying if I said I don't take it in to consideration, but I think that generally, we should simply go after the best targets to get us to the next round.

	30-03-2004 11:16									#9
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Back on topic:

With my confidence that our agressive stance waneing, and my fears that being agressive right now while we're not prepared to support a war is going to bite us in the ass, I'm on the fence.

What is pulling me over to the "cooperate" side of the matter is this very persuasive and beneficial deal that CDG has proposed to us. We partner up with these guys, we'll reap the benefits and we can easily stomp them later on.

--Togas

	30-03-2004 11:37									#10
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Lets cooperate, Its a good deal and if there are cooperations between the other teams we will be lost if we miss this opportunity.
I think they got Ivory, thats why they dont want us to go closer.
Who will get the first shot in building the Statue of Zeus with their tech-proposal?

	30-03-2004 12:14									#11
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none of it mentions math at all. some other nation will get zeus

i'm voting against the trades, but they will undoubtedly pass. it would be nice to know what we're doing so i know to strong arm or explore

	30-03-2004 12:47									#12
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Kill 'em already!

	30-03-2004 12:58									#13
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I don't think they have Ivory. I think it only shows up on plains, and they don't appear to have any.

If we go for this for some reason, we should DEMAND that we be allowed to do Philo as we are a sci civ and would stand a much better chance at a SGL. And if we are partners, what helps their partners helps them so it would be mutually benificial (until we rush Zues's and smear the ground with them).

	30-03-2004 13:01									#14
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Oh, and I voted no BTW.

I do not think we can eliminate them at this point, even if we pull off the Two Warrior Stack. But we could cripple them. After we do that, we would be able to eliminate them at our leisure.

	30-03-2004 15:23									#15
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thrash the buggers

	30-03-2004 19:33									#16
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Cooperate for now, our superior REXing ability and grabbing the Ivory will seal there fate eventually if we desire to go that way.

	30-03-2004 19:56									#17
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If we can trust them, then allying with them will guarantee us advancement just as much as eliminating them will. Perhaps more so. Not only that if we are playing for the long term and not just to get to the 2nd game, then a long term ally is potentially worth a lot more than a easy game 1 pass.

I think Im actually for forgetting the early aggression thing and taking this deal. One catch: I too want the ivory. Its worth fighting for since a close neighbor with Zeus can probally overcome our hoplites.

	30-03-2004 20:09									#18
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Co-operation!

"All we are saying, is give peace a chance."

Close vote. But I think we do ourselves more favors in both the shorter and longer term by co-operating with them.

My one concern - if there are 3 civs on our continent - and we are in the middle - well - ouch.

And I concur with Togas' comment above: beware GWT, and yes, PAL. The ladderites have some great players on that team, and ladder games tend to be aggressive. It will be interesting to see how they behave in this game.

	30-03-2004 23:21									#19
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My first instinct is to vote for Cooperation.
My second instinct is to abstain until I finish reading all the stuff here.
I'm not voting(yet) but I like the idea of cooperating(for now).

	30-03-2004 23:25									#20
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As every one believes that we can build a better economy, then we should ally with them. If we get republic, then all the better.

Wait until they change governments, then kill them.
The WW will help if we are on the offensive.

	30-03-2004 23:36									#21
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Read my give peace a chance thread. I think that by cooperation, although it annoys me to think so, we will go farther than either of us could without.
--GK

	31-03-2004 07:50									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX none of it mentions math at all. some other nation will get zeus

Uber, teams are just barely getting around to their second city, us included. Barring further delays in getting Math, I think a 200 shield prebuild will be far more problematic than getting math in time.

	31-03-2004 16:15									#23
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My opinion is lets make plans to eliminate them but co-operate till we have the best opportunity - keep the options open

	31-03-2004 21:23									#24
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Read my give peace a chance thread. I think that by cooperation, although it annoys me to think so, we will go farther than either of us could without. --GK

I had waited to Vote, Until I had read your Thread, GK, and I voted for cooperation, atleast for now.

But Let's trust them to not be as nice to us and make sure that we are still militarily strong compaired to them.

E_T

	01-04-2004 08:46									#25
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I had waited to Vote, Until I had read your Thread, GK, and I voted for cooperation, atleast for now. But Let's trust them to not be as nice to us and make sure that we are still militarily strong compaired to them. E_T

I agree. We can trust them, as long as we are strong enough to make them do what we want them to do. Otherwise, we risk ourselves too much for my comfort.