30-03-2004 23:25									#1
	A proposal for peace? Inflate your Upload Space

A proposal for peace.

After encountering our neighbors, the Vikings, I had the fortune to chat with them. I know we are leaning towards attacking them, but in the chat several ideas came about that intrigued me. These ideas revolved around making peace with our neighbors.

Our UU compliment each other. Nobody will attack us in the ancient era, as our cheep Hoplites are the same as a pike. They do not get upgraded until we discover gunpowder. Their Berserker UU is a dominant offensive unit through the middle ages. While they are week, we are strong. While we are getting week, they get very strong. Bur our strength lies not in offensive might (sorry Uber KruX). Our strength lies in being able to defend ourselves (we saw how good a pure defensive stance worked with RP team) and being able to make smart long term decisions. We need to be able to go offensive, and using the Berserker is one very good way.

The Vikings have the best UU in the game, if they ever get to use it. We can guarantee them being able to use it, and being able to use it earlier than anybody else would ever guess.

The proposal is simple really. We join forces. We do full disclosure. We divide our land mass as evenly as possible, and then as other land is found, we colonize as much of it as possible. If there is a third team on our landmass, we jointly take them out so we can grow. We build wonders in a cooperative fashion. We war together. We research together. We share all techs. We share gold for upgrading. Be become brothers.

The first test would be the Republic / Philosophy gambit. Once that is done, we make a rush for the next age, pushing REX outward to the islands and other land masses that we find in our explorations.

How do we go about doing this? We make our show of force. We march our two warriors up to the edge of their territory, and announce our intentions, either be our friends forever, and keep the peace, with us guiding (but not taking over) our mutual development or we invade, destroy a few improvements, and if possible kill them.

The agreement would have to offer us guarantees of survival. Their guarantee is mostly that we do not have a huge offensive force (although Zeus may change that). Hoplites are by nature defensive. We just don’t want an early, unexpected GA. We are the rock that their Berserkers will smash our enemies against.

Mutual trust and a fair amount of self determination will be necessary for this to work.

One point, we must gain access to Chivalry prior or equal to Invention. That will guarantee that we will be able to defend against a berserker invasion.

The Plusses:
Double the research
A friendly border
Sharing the costs of upgrading units.
Wonder sharing

The Minus
We have to trust them. I would rather be self determining and independent.

	30-03-2004 23:36									#2
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I have to admit that since reading the chat I've been slowly leaning toward the benefits of a mutually cooperative relationship. I originally voted for "kill the bastards" but if we feel we can forge a trusting alliance then it might be even more to our benefit to forge ahead in setting up armies and waiting for some of the other civs to bash their heads against each other.

By the way, I would contend that the value of hoplites on defense extends even beyond gunpowder all the way up to nationalism. Mustketmen are nice, but if we don't hook up a source of saltpeter we can build three hoplites (each with 3 defense) compared to one musketman with 4 defense.

Last edited by Rhothaerill on 30-03-2004 at 23:42

	30-03-2004 23:40									#3
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Quite true with the Hoplites Rhoth. However, the killer will be the upgrading..... assuming this game ever gets that far.

	30-03-2004 23:52									#4
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It is the one minus that scares me. we have little chance of killing them if they attack in a determined way, becuse their odds are too good. If we can kill them at some point after we both gain republic, then we get the best of both worlds.
A tech lead, and wonder sharing (too a degree )
If we can get iron, and sever theirs, we could defend by attacking their SoDs with swordmen

	31-03-2004 00:07									#5
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Something else that I was convinced of while in chat last night during some of the discussion...even if we were to cripple them, we couldn't likely annihilate them without crippling ourselves as well. They have the ability to quickly pop-rush an archer (something I forgot about until reminded of it last night) to attack our warriors before we get in range of their capital. That would make it very unlikely we could take them out right now.

	31-03-2004 02:09									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill Something else that I was convinced of while in chat last night during some of the discussion...even if we were to cripple them, we couldn't likely annihilate them without crippling ourselves as well. They have the ability to quickly pop-rush an archer (something I forgot about until reminded of it last night) to attack our warriors before we get in range of their capital. That would make it very unlikely we could take them out right now.

if the poprushed the archer we'd see it. if we saw it we could opt not to attack, and they wasted their pop point out of paranoia.

	31-03-2004 02:16									#7
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If we follow the plan, we enter the city radius, and CDG have to decide to pop rush, because we will not have declared war (in all but name, anyway...). It comes down to their choice.

THis is just a thought for future relations, though.

	31-03-2004 02:33									#8
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If we enter their city radius, we've essentially attacked them. We can expect them to do the same to us. Roads R Us will not be safe from their warrior who is headed west right now.

I'd go along with us attacking settlers or workers that are exposed and then pulling back to Apolyton, but moving into their cultural radius only to later move back out because we can't possibly take them... we can't justify that action. We would have made an enemy and gained nothing from it.

--Togas

	31-03-2004 02:41									#9
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Don't look at me, I want to beat them up later. I abstain on any idea about stealing workers and settlers

	31-03-2004 02:55									#10
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I support either cooperation or a better thought out offensive than the warrior gambit.

For now short term cooperation looks like a very, very good option.

	31-03-2004 05:50									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If we are going friendly (you bunch of wussies ), then marching up on their border with two warriors is NOT what we want to do. These are humans and humans hold grudges. It would be the same as the RP trade for writting to GoW in the PTWDG. GoW went along with it because we had no choice, but we wern't happy about it and started the long plan of attack. Now to use the "postion of power" with a team that is going to have Bezerkers is a very BAD idea.

We might be better off to play friendly, not try the Two Warrior Stack, and plant Blondie in the Fog of War to wait for an unsuspecting worker/settler (as in the "Lie in Wait" plan.

	31-03-2004 06:22									#12
	Re: A proposal for peace? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by GodKing A proposal for peace. After encountering our neighbors, the Vikings, I had the fortune to chat with them. I know we are leaning towards attacking them, but in the chat several ideas came about that intrigued me. These ideas revolved around making peace with our neighbors. Our UU compliment each other. Nobody will attack us in the ancient era, as our cheep Hoplites are the same as a pike. They do not get upgraded until we discover gunpowder. Their Berserker UU is a dominant offensive unit through the middle ages. While they are week, we are strong. While we are getting week, they get very strong. Bur our strength lies not in offensive might (sorry Uber KruX). Our strength lies in being able to defend ourselves (we saw how good a pure defensive stance worked with RP team) and being able to make smart long term decisions. We need to be able to go offensive, and using the Berserker is one very good way. The Vikings have the best UU in the game, if they ever get to use it. We can guarantee them being able to use it, and being able to use it earlier than anybody else would ever guess. The proposal is simple really. We join forces. We do full disclosure. We divide our land mass as evenly as possible, and then as other land is found, we colonize as much of it as possible. If there is a third team on our landmass, we jointly take them out so we can grow. We build wonders in a cooperative fashion. We war together. We research together. We share all techs. We share gold for upgrading. Be become brothers. The first test would be the Republic / Philosophy gambit. Once that is done, we make a rush for the next age, pushing REX outward to the islands and other land masses that we find in our explorations. How do we go about doing this? We make our show of force. We march our two warriors up to the edge of their territory, and announce our intentions, either be our friends forever, and keep the peace, with us guiding (but not taking over) our mutual development or we invade, destroy a few improvements, and if possible kill them. The agreement would have to offer us guarantees of survival. Their guarantee is mostly that we do not have a huge offensive force (although Zeus may change that). Hoplites are by nature defensive. We just don’t want an early, unexpected GA. We are the rock that their Berserkers will smash our enemies against. Mutual trust and a fair amount of self determination will be necessary for this to work. One point, we must gain access to Chivalry prior or equal to Invention. That will guarantee that we will be able to defend against a berserker invasion. The Plusses: Double the research A friendly border Sharing the costs of upgrading units. Wonder sharing The Minus We have to trust them. I would rather be self determining and independent.

GK A man after my own heart. I agree completely with this stance, other than the two warrior thing. As Don has pointed out - we are either friends, or we ain't. I think CDG we clearly see the mutual benefits of being friends without needing to have two thugs (with apologies to our SMC) put pressure on them.

The one minus - we have to trust them. Yes - and they have to trust us. I know that the 'other' game is not a complete benchmark to go by, but we had good relations, and with a bit of up-front and reasonable dialogue and trading, we can make this work too.

Peaceniks of the world unite!

	31-03-2004 06:31									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

For what its worth, I don't think threats are the way to make friends and influence people either

	31-03-2004 12:36									#14
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I agree that "threat's" alone won't do it for us. We have to follow though with them as well.

If we eliminate or severley cripple CDG now we then have much more space to REX in and we don't have to spend as much on Military to keep the "trust" in them. I don't care how much you trust another team; you still build and militarily plan for them to come after you.

If we keep them around we will have to put more effort into Military than we would if we find another Civ some 30 tiles away versus how close CDG really is to us.

	31-03-2004 21:18									#15
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Yes, in the mean time, we should contunue to work on filling our space, and getting our Resources and Military set up. Also, the money to upgrade our Warriors to Swordsmen.

IMHO, Anchient era wars are messy, especially when your working on bringing your nation up to make massive war at a later time.

E_T

	01-04-2004 18:00									#16
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Arrrgggghhh all this peacenik talk is making me sick

The point is do we want to waste a massive amount of time playing a long peaceful qualifying game followed by an even longer final game. Judging by the amount of time the first ISDG has taken to play we could well be looking at Civ 4 coming out before we finish the C3C ISDG.

We should take responsibility for trying to end this game as quickly as is humanly possible so we can get on with the main event. This will most likely entail wiping at least one team out.

At the moment CDG are and will probably remain our most viable target. It is highly likely that the other teams are a long way away, if not on another continent. This will make the logistics of carrying out a large and successful offensive war difficult to say the least.

Now I am not against short term peace with CDG but I think we need to keep our eye on the ball and make the necessary preparations to exterminate them with extreme prejudice within the next 30-40 turns.

	02-04-2004 02:45									#17
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We don't have the strength to take CDG out right now. 30-40 turns we still won't have completed the tech deal. Since CDG is Militaristic they are more likely to get unit promotions which could be a problem for us. Much will depend on where the iron is.

	02-04-2004 03:01									#18
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quote: (we saw how good a pure defensive stance worked with RP team)

* UnOrthOdOx checks the latest maps...

Yeah, quite effective...

quote: Now I am not against short term peace with CDG but I think we need to keep our eye on the ball and make the necessary preparations to exterminate them with extreme prejudice within the next 30-40 turns.

	02-04-2004 04:11									#19
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We lost our chance here. I doubt another chance will present itself with as much hope as the prior plan had of eliminating a team. Any future war with CDG will cost us more and more as time wears on.

	02-04-2004 06:17									#20
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I feel that with Zeus, they will actually be fairly easy pickings with about 5 Ancient Cav, 10 swords, 10 hoplites, and a sound civ in a GA behind them to pump out units as needed.

	02-04-2004 13:03									#21
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So our GA will be an Ancient Age one?

	03-04-2004 03:44									#22
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I would suspect it would be towards the late ancient age, as we want to be able to end this game fairly quickly. Not the best timing for an overall game, but it should be good enough for this one.

	03-04-2004 04:36									#23
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Hey, we might not even need a GA to get through this game...

E_T