30-03-2004 23:53									#1
	Little diplomatic snags and other MOO1 problems. Remove this text

I've figured out most of the tricks of the original Orion's gameplay mechanics (multi-ship vs. single-tough-ship weapons, etc.), but I can't quite understand why the AI continues harassing the same planets after agreeing to end a war. They seem to stop looking for new targets, and don't expand their agression, but they keep trying to invade the same planets even after we make peace. This would have to be a pretty huge bug if that was all it was, but the AI immediately declares war if I conquer one of its planets, so it doesn't appear to be expected that the races keep up their agression on a smaller scale, which wouldn't make sense anyway. What's the point of "peace" at all if the enemy keeps attacking?

	31-03-2004 00:44									#2
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Are you talking about troops being dropped on your planet? If so they were sent before peace was agreed to and cannot be stopped. I run into this all the time. I have lost planets that way after peace was signed.

If you are talking about something else such as ships being sent and not retreating, post a save and I will look at it. You need to rename the gam to sav in order to attach it.

	31-03-2004 00:51									#3
	Re: Little diplomatic snags and other MOO1 problems. Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Elok What's the point of "peace" at all if the enemy keeps attacking?

To me there is no point in making peace, unless you want to stop them attacking for a period or you want to sway them in the council vote to abstain.

I tend to stay at war nearly all the time, with just brief peace from time to time. I want to prevent the AI from 1) attacking weak races 2) building up enough of a fleet to hurt me.

This is done by having them waste ships attacking my missile bases. They spent resources on replacing lost ships and I spend nothing, but an occassional lost dither ship.

Once in a while I have to be careful if they manage to get a strong enough fleet and my missile tech is weak compared to their ships.

	31-03-2004 03:02									#4
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I don't just mean transports sent before peace was signed; the AI keeps attacking and trying to take over the planets it was attacking before "peace," even building new ships and sending multiple transports if necessary. They'll sometimes even change targets to a weaker nearby world, after I've fortified a planet too much for them to take it on. Does it have to do with the fact that they always hate me, maybe? On the diplomacy screen ratings, I mean; obviously they DO hate me a great deal. Would a non-agression pact solve this problem?

Speaking of frustrations, I take it there's no way to avoid building a planetary shield before missiles? I try to postpone planetary shield research as much as possible, but I'm inevitably forced to learn at least one, which of course makes it take about thirty turns to get a firm grip on conquered planets. Grr.

	31-03-2004 03:22									#5
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Last issue first as it is the easy one. Yes you are stuck once you have learned a shield tech. You will be forced to build the shield before you can build missiles.

This can be a problem as you noted, but I will prefer that over not having a shield.

	31-03-2004 03:32									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Elok I don't just mean transports sent before peace was signed; the AI keeps attacking and trying to take over the planets it was attacking before "peace," even building new ships and sending multiple transports if necessary. They'll sometimes even change targets to a weaker nearby world, after I've fortified a planet too much for them to take it on. Does it have to do with the fact that they always hate me, maybe? On the diplomacy screen ratings, I mean; obviously they DO hate me a great deal. Would a non-agression pact solve this problem?

Some races start with a predisposition to dislike some other races. Example is Alkari start out loathing the Mrrshans.

You have leader personality types to deal with such as Xenophobic, they have modifiers that combine to determine the odds of launcing an attack. If this test is passed, they look to see whom to attack. Then to see if they have a fleet near enough to do it in the near future. Then they choose a target. Preference is giving to planets that have the most factories, but it could be that only one or two planets met the cirteria.

	31-03-2004 06:59									#7
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Last issue first as it is the easy one. Yes you are stuck once you have learned a shield tech. You will be forced to build the shield before you can build missiles. This can be a problem as you noted, but I will prefer that over not having a shield.

Why? Shields can weaken bombardments, missile bases keep 'em from happening at all. You can build about ten missile bases in the same time it takes to build a shield. Bases take maintenance, true, but I'd rather have that and not have to bother with protecting planets. And in some cases a weakened bombardment would be a bad thing; I'd rather an enemy destroy the colony entirely than weaken it enough to take it with troops.

	31-03-2004 08:38									#8
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Well I don't think those are my options. But the real thing to me is that at times I will not be able to defeat the attackers befoe they reach my planet. In that case they wil drop bombs. If I have a shield I can keep hitting them with missiles and defeat them before they take the planet.

So in a case where they can bust my shields and take over, I am screwed. In a case where I can defeat them before they get to the planet, I don't need shields. It is the oter case I care about. When they get to the planet to drop bombs.

It is only in contested and newly founded planets that I have to be concerned about not being able to get missiles up before they arrive, due to building the shield. This is where my fleet has to do the job or I have to buy the AI off. Well I guess I could just lose the planet.

The rest of the time I should have the required number of bases anyway, if not it is my fault. In the case mentioned above I would use cash to speed the shields up.

	31-03-2004 18:47									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I've only played at average difficulty so far, so I don't know how much they use bombers at the higher levels; is it more often than at lower levels? In my experience, at least, even a single missile base will scare away a whole fleet of invaders, except for "bomber" types equipped with biological weapons and the like, who are usually present in pitifully small numbers and can be wiped out by 3-4 missile bases. With the exception of those frigging Klackons, of course...

	31-03-2004 22:18									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I play at impossible and have not played at avg in years, but I am sure it is about the same. The thing is at hard and impossible you cannot build ships as fast as the AI for some time. This means you can't fight straight up.

The way you prevent them from bailing out or trick them into fighting your bases is with a dither ship. I make a small ship with a 5 shot missile and the best engine. Any space left goes firsts to armor, then movement and them ecm/shield and finally specials.

Now they will tend to try to kill that ship. I will paste them with bases and get them (usually) to back up once they get in range of my ships missiles. They back up till they are out of range and then come back. Rinse and repeat till either all ships are destroyed or you run out of missiles or the ship is destroyed.

I retreat the ship if I can before it is whacked or once it is out of missiles. This works great in most cases until their ships can move 3 squares at once. This is not a problem as by then you can use your ships to fight.

	31-03-2004 22:36									#11
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The biggest concern, other than them showing up with a fleet that cannot be surpressed, is they will have death spores and you have no antidote. The AI will almost always have either bombs or bio weapons.

I tend to let a planet slowly build up to 20 bases, unless it is going to be out of reach of the AI. I want to get to 10 fairly soon and then ease up to 20 as needed. The stronger the planet the slower I can go, as I can probably crank bases out quickly in a pinch there.

The AI will show up with large numbers very soon at impossible and it will be hard to surpress them. The game can be a bugger if you do not get a decent missile when you need it.

The game progress in stages and you will soon need more than one design for missile ships as their fleets will have maybe 4 to 6 stacks. I want one design for the first 2 or 3 stacks and 1 more each stack after that. Only use one ship of each type at that planet. I will only build beam ships in the beginning if it is the only way to hold a planet before it can get bases.

Resources spend on large ships is a waste until you get HEF or there abouts.

I have had a few hairy games where the AI shows up with 5 stacks, maybe 1 of small, 2 or 3 large and 1 or more huge. The numbers can be in the 10's of thounsands. I will face them with MB (40 or more) and a fleet or several designs of large with total numbers of 10-15 each. This battle is not always winnable. Depends on many things, armor, guns and missiles. If I have HEF and autoblasters or gausscannons with good armor and scatter pack VII, I may be able to win. Or at least drive them off.

	01-04-2004 03:29									#12
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I'm working my way up the scale slowly but surely; I just got to the point where "easy" difficulty level was too boring to tolerate, and average is something of a challenge. I've just won, or just-about-won, my first "average" game as the Psilons. I've reached that annoying stage where I control almost but not quite two thirds of the population and have to either go through the bother of taking over and terraforming enough planets to win a majority, then wait for the vote, or else methodically exterminate the other races. Either choice is pretty tedious. This game would be a lot more fun if there was a score system to give the endgame some purpose...

	01-04-2004 04:36									#13
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True, but I like to milk them to the last planet. I just finsihed a shocker for me. I was just starting to take off and grab planets and the vote can and I won the vote? Three races voted for me, that is very rare in my games. They must have been mad at the other guy. I hated that and refused the vote.

	01-04-2004 08:46									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

FYI:

AI production rates per level

-20% at Simple
-10% at Easy
0 at Avg
+25% at Hard
+50% at Impossible

So you can expect to see the AI start to do much better as you move up at building ships. The trade income is not affected by this bonus.

	01-04-2004 08:49									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

Expansion rate is a colony ships is available and a suitable planet exist in fuel range.
Base 10 is multiplied by:

1 - Simple
2 - Easy
3 - Avg
4 - Hard
5 - Impossible

So you see they will expand faster as you move and it will be easier as they will have better production.

	01-04-2004 08:55									#16
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One more, research. The AI is not affected by the level in terms of research, but you are. So in effect, it gain a big edge as you move up. I will ignore racial traits and tech cost, ut they are factored by this:

20 Simple
25 Easy
30 Avg this is what the AI uses in all games
35 Hard
40 Impossible

So you can see it will be twice as hard to research a tech at impossible, as it would have been at simple. You will pay 33% more than the AI at imposible.

	01-04-2004 17:51									#17
	Got spare money?

Strangely enough, as we talk about difficulty levels, I'm sooo close to becoming a "Prince" here at 'poly...

I've gotten a voted victory from the other players before. It's actually not that hard. You just play against the Darloks and declare war against them at the very last minute. The other AI players will want to have your baby.

How do your rates affect spying effectiveness? Even playing as the Darloks, with superior computer tech levels, I'm having a heckuva time stealing techs. I know they start to use spies more themselves at higher levels, but do they gain an advantage security-wise as you go up the ladder?

	01-04-2004 23:22									#18
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Spy cost are a function of your computer tech. The first spy is 25BC + 2x tech level. Each additional one cost double the previous one at your current tech level.

In the main when I want to steal tech, I set my allocation to 4.4% and let it ride until I have stolen everything they have or I am about to start taking their planets.

The one the impact to the AI is that as you go up levels they get production bonuses and hence have more to spend on spies.

	01-04-2004 23:23									#19
	Got spare money?

I see you made Prince, congrats.

	07-04-2004 03:57									#20
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Thank you. What does researching advanced Planetology do for the player? The other five fields all miniaturize some useful ship component or other, plus computers also makes you a better spy. If Planetology just makes colony bases or bioterminators smaller...meh. Does it make terraforming cheaper somehow, or anything like that?

	07-04-2004 06:26									#21
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Two other things it does is:
1) reduce the cost of pop (this is small)
2) increase productivity of workers.

This is huge and the Klacs get a bonus in this area.
Level 8 planetology 1.48 for Klacs
Level 50 is 4.00 for Klacs.

	10-04-2004 12:50									#22
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If you are having trouble with the AI attacking you early on, there is a very good strategy you can employ to avoid their attacks altogether. You should establish trade with the AI and watch how your relations with them improve over time.

It's not always easy to trade with other nations. If you're Human, it's piece of cake, but if you are Darlok everybody is going to hate you. In these circumstances a friendly gift of an outdated tech can do the trick.

One more thing: Never trust a race whose leader is erratic. They can attack out of the blue quoting their famous author: "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war". These erratic races are No 1 on my hit list when I get strong enough. Klackons and Bulrathi are usually erratic, and Psilons, Humans and Meklars can sometimes also be erratic.

	10-04-2004 17:16									#23
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Yeah, I played a game as the Klackons to test, and man does production take off after a few planetology levels! It probably helped that I was playing against the Mrrshan and Alkari though. What a bunch of vermin. Is there any player, besides the humans, weaker than them?

How do trade routes work? Do you just both get extra BC for some reason? I usually agree to them in the rare instances when the AI asks, just to shut 'em up, but I don't start them because I don't know what they do.

	11-04-2004 07:58									#24
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I always avoid trades. The main reason is that you start out losing on the deal and once it goes positive they will probably declare war. Either way, not much use to me.

	11-04-2004 22:42									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Uh, lil' confession: I downloaded the game from an abandonware site. I basically figured out the game as I went along. I don't even know what they mean by "trading X BC per year." What exactly do they do?

	12-04-2004 10:19									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

Races can either contact you or you them and offer a treaty. It can be research or trade. You offer an amount and agree on it. Once that is done some BC's will be used to fund that trade. Over time you will start to make money on the deal and the trade will bring in money.

If you are playing as a Human the trade will tend to do better and more likely to be accepted. I have not checked on the impact of the level, if any. I would expect that the lower the level the more likely the AI will be to accept deals.

	13-04-2004 17:41									#27
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So basically, when I make an agreement, the other race and I are purchasing stock in Alkari-Klackon Relations, Inc.?

	14-04-2004 01:57									#28
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I was using my old PC to play some games that do not run in my XP system, so I have not been on the net the last few days. Just a quick in and out.

So I should have mentioned that trade will also potentually boost DP relations. You can only trade bewtween 5-25% of the smaller races GNP. You must have at least 100BC gross encon to trade.

Trade profit goes from -30% to 100%. It will start for -30% and grown bewtween 0-5% per turn. The rate of growth is d200 + current relations + 25 (rounded down).


Note that as you increase your trade, you get a hit on profitability.
Note also you could actually have -1% growth if you are at Fued with your partner.

I cannot say if the reason the AI will go to war with you after you get to the plus side is due to that or other factors. Probably the other factors as unless you are playing as Humans it won't take long for the AI to not like you. This is even more so for me as I mostly play on small maps. This means contact sooner and lack of free planets very soon.

	14-04-2004 05:17									#29
	Put an end to popups!

The AI hates you when you become strong (the strongest) regardless of the trade agreements. But trade keeps the AI from attacking you early on while you are still relatively weak.

When you become strong, trade is not an issue any more. You can, however, pick one race to be your loyal friend (preferably not humans, erratic or peaceful race cause they'll switch sides without notice) and remain allied with them, trading and boosting your economy.

I usually follow this strategy.

	14-04-2004 05:27									#30
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No trade for me as I want to be at war at all times with all races, unless I had to sweat a vote.

I need them to attack me from time to time to keep those fleets in check.