31-03-2004 01:16									#1
	build never - Artillary flag Full PM-box? Change here!

The AU MOD has always stayed away from 'inventing' or 'creating' new buildings or units as much as possible. The Mods approach being to keep as close to stock as possible and err on the side of the conservative. In PTW, the SPHQ that was invented for Communism was one of the very very few examples of the AU Mod 'inventing a building/unit.

I think it is time to consider this again.

case in point ..... Korea

the build never flag on artillary for the AIs leaves Korea as the only CIV in the game that does NOT have a UU -

I believe that a Korea without a UU is a greater departure from stock - than the AU Mod having a nice conservative UU created by the AU panel.

Ision

	31-03-2004 01:55									#2
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What is the point of a UU for the AI if they never use it to attack? They get no GA either way.

The AI is broken in several areas in C3C, and bombard units is one of them. Until this gets fixed, the build-never flag helps the AI, and the human player will hardly notice.

Edit: Sorry, I just realized that you propose to create new UU. This is a possibility, but let's see if Firaxis fixes AI bombard units before they are done with C3C patches first.

	31-03-2004 02:10									#3
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If ever a new korean UU is being introduced, would perhaps a musketmen with a high range 0 bombard be an option? It could keep the name and graphics of the current H'wacha (sp?) and so would feel closest to stock

	31-03-2004 02:22									#4
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This has me thinking - often in my epic games, Korea is rather strong... If they are competitive without a UU-triggered GA, I wonder how hamstrung they really are...

	31-03-2004 02:42									#5
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Hamstrung or not - it seems to me that to have a 'conservative' mod that completely eliminates the UU of a single CIV (korea is strong - but not the strongest AI CIV) while leaving intact the other 30 UUs is a bit strange.

Ision

	31-03-2004 02:45									#6
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If worst comes to worst, give them the Hoplite

	31-03-2004 02:51									#7
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I think this idea has merit, but otoh, how often does a Korean AI trigger a golden age with its UU under stock rules?

	31-03-2004 02:53									#8
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lethal bombard. Self explanatry.

Or wonders of course

	31-03-2004 03:01									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Madine I think this idea has merit, but otoh, how often does a Korean AI trigger a golden age with its UU under stock rules?

I think Ision misunderstood me, because this is exactly my point.

Even more troubling, though, is the question "How often does a Korean AI trigger a GA. Period."

Stock or AU, doesn't matter. If Korea is crippled and is still competitive, I definitely want to see some information on how they would perform with a triggerable GA, or a GA at all, if they generally don't get one.

Anyone got any data or debug games showing that Korea _regularly_ gets a GA or _regularly_ doesn't? Enquiring minds want to know.

	31-03-2004 03:07									#10
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The point of my question was, given that the AI use of artillery is so incompetant that AU has prevented the AI from building them, how often does the AI actually use the Korean UU to lethally bombard something.

	31-03-2004 03:10									#11
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It kills a half damaged unit in self defence. Not against the human, though. Who would let the AI get into a GA?

	31-03-2004 03:15									#12
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I think there's some confusion all around.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ision is saying that, because the AU Mod has given(or is debating already) the Build-never flag to the AIs to prevent them building unusable units, that now Korea is UU-less.
He wants to debate implementing a new UU that is not classified as Bombard so that Korea will once again have a UU, this time one that it will use/trigger a GA with.

That triggered my amazement at how well Korea performs, especially in games where it doesn't build enough wonders to trigger a GA, which I think was misunderstood as a statement that Korea is strong enough - it wasn't.

Madine worded my thoughts much more clearly, which I decided to take a step further.

I agree that Korea should have a UU, preferably one it knows how to use. Lethal bombard doesn't happen often enough for the AI for it to be the GA trigger, IMO. Since Korea can't build its never-build UU, I'd bet that it doesn't happen often.

	31-03-2004 03:16									#13
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quote: It kills a half damaged unit in self defence. Not against the human, though. Who would let the AI get into a GA?

In most of my games, half-damaged AI units _usually_ retreat to heal. It is a very rare thing for me to be attacked by an injured AI unit.

Edit: oops, this was supposed to be an edit. sorry bout the two posts in a row.

	31-03-2004 03:23									#14
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1) Sorry for adding to the confusion
2) two posts in a row is OK, I've seen about 17-in-a-row

	31-03-2004 14:03									#15
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Why not flag a standard unit as Koreas UU? Longbowmen or cavalry perhaps, as those are relatively close to the h'wacha. As they are offensive units, their use will come close to how a human will use a h'wacha to trigger a GA.

	31-03-2004 17:11									#16
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AFAIK you can not flag a unit as a UU for the koreans, you can only flag it as being buildable only by the koreans and/or triggering a golden age, neither seems desirable for cavalry or longbowmen

	31-03-2004 17:22									#17
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So there are no specific UU flag then? (don't have the editor at hand now)

You could always duplicate one of the standard units, rename it 'Korean xx', keep the old stats and flags it with 'korean only'

	31-03-2004 17:50									#18
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"Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ision is saying that, because the AU Mod has given(or is debating already) the Build-never flag to the AIs to prevent them building unusable units, that now Korea is UU-less.
He wants to debate implementing a new UU that is not classified as Bombard so that Korea will once again have a UU, this time one that it will use/trigger a GA with. "

thanks ducki - that is exactly what I am saying.

I just find it odd that this Mod would leave a single CIV out of the 31 without a UU - that the UU they once had was rarely if ever used to trigger a 'GA" is not the point - that is merely an example of a 'broken' feature of the game - the type of feature that this MOD trys to correct or minimize. As I said before, to have a single CIV that has no UU whatsoever, is a greater departure from stock than replacing that UU with another one.

Ision

	31-03-2004 20:15									#19
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quote: You could always duplicate one of the standard units, rename it 'Korean xx', keep the old stats and flags it with 'korean only'

What about letting, say, Longbows, upgrade to H'Wacha?
alexman, you'd know best - would this keep the AIs from building bombard units while still allowing the Korean AI to have a chance at a UU-triggered GA, however slim? Would Build-never also translate to "don't upgrade into"?


Edit: Of course, this would also require changing the H'Wacha to upgrade to whatever Longbows normally do - Guerrillas, I think. That seems like the most conservative approach, assuming the AI would not suffer by "losing" their Longbows. The main drawback I can see is that a human playing Korea _might_ be confused by this, though any problems caused by said confusion would, IMO, be less than the changes we've made to curraghs and sea travel. Just IMO.

	31-03-2004 20:17									#20
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Well, Korea is not really UU-less. It's only the AI that doesn't build the UU. We design the mod with the human player in mind, and for us, Korea has not changed from stock.

Yes, the AI doesn't build the Hwach'a in the AU mod, but that is not a big change from stock, as it didn't build them before in any great numbers, and certainly didn't use them to trigger a GA.

	31-03-2004 20:19									#21
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quote: Originally posted by ducki What about letting, say, Longbows, upgrade to H'Wacha? alexman, you'd know best - would this keep the AIs from building bombard units while still allowing the Korean AI to have a chance at a UU-triggered GA, however slim? Would Build-never also translate to "don't upgrade into"?

The AI would upgrade those units to Hwach'as, sure. But that wouldn't change the fact that those units would sit in cities without ever attacking anything, thus still not triggering any GA.

	31-03-2004 20:46									#22
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Just duplicate the longbowmen then, call the duplicate 'Korean Longbowmen' and let them behave like *normal* longbowmen in every manner except that they can trigger the korean GA.

	31-03-2004 20:47									#23
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So isn't that a bigger change from stock for the human player?

	31-03-2004 20:51									#24
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Oops

Of course it is. The change would only work if you never play korea.