31-03-2004 08:07									#1
	Pre-emptive war in SMAC Get a bigger avatar today!

Okay, if your neighbor was a human-controlled Yang, and you had infiltration, and you knew for certain that he already had over 15 nerve gas choppers, and was in the process of building more, would that make you more likely to make a pre-emptive attack?. What if you knew that he had several PB's, and was building more? More or less likely for pre-emptive attack?

What if you had suspicion that your human-controlled Yang neighbor was building nerve gas choppers and/or PB's, but you didn't know for sure because you didn't have infiltration (which is rare, I know, because any good player gets infiltration ASAP.)? But anyways, if you suspected Yang of building those weapons, would that make you more or less likely to engage in pre-emptive war?

What if you knew that Yang didn't have any nerve gas choppers or PB's yet, but you knew that he had the capability and intent to produce some within the next few turns? Pre-emptive war more or less likely?

What if you knew that Yang's infrastructure couldn't quite support the building of nerve gas choppers or PB's yet, but you thought that he had the intent to produce some in the future? Would that make you more or less likely to launch a surprise attack against Yang?

(And yes, I know that many people, including myself, would pre-emptively strike Yang anyway, because the safest Yang is a Yang locked in a punishment sphere , so that's why I phrased the question "Would it make you more likely to pre-emptively strike him?" But I'm curious to hear how people would handle this. And remember, we are dealing with, let's assume, a relatively good SMAC human opponent playing Yang.)

	31-03-2004 09:17									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It would depend on my own position. If staying at peace allowed me to build up faster than it did for Yang, then peace it would be. If not, then war.

In theory anyway.

	31-03-2004 10:09									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Flechettes all the way man. They only give a 50% of destroying an incoming Planet Buster, but still, it's better than nothing. Personally, I'd kill Yang simply because of his ideals, but when he's being run by a human player that is good, then I think we have a problem.

Normally, I am very honorable. I rarely declare war on people, only kill them in defense (usually because of AI stupidity). And I rarely attack people (it is not because I am a pacifist). I rely more on my probe teams (go Data Angels) to do the job, destroy production on Planet Busters and Secret Projects, and the very first thing to do, place infilirators in every faction as soon as possible. If I knew Yang had a horde of Copters with Nerve Gas and a bunch of PBs, heck, yeah, I'd kill him. First, I'd use AAA tracking units to attack the bases, probably speeders. Might even use drop pods. But first, I'd use probe teams to destroy production and all those atrocious units. Still, though, it's a tough decision, because if I fail, he'll certainly use those weapons on me (that's what they're for), and if I take no action, I take a risk. He bombs someone else, simply stockpiles them for no reason (highly unlikely), or, he bombs me first. The way I see it, either way I'm screwed, which is why I would utilize my probe teams, a whole horde of them, and efficiently destroy his illegal units. The problem with people that use atrocities is, they will win at all cost. He'd go all out on me, and it's a heck of a lot easier to play defense. Say I get Self-Aware Machines, then I build orbital defense pods.

Still, you have a good question. The scenario, however, is unlikely ever to happen against me, although, if it did, I'd have to say I'd attack first. Even if all the other factions thought I was a backstabber, maybe later they'll appreciate my stupidity on attacking a expert at the game with the will to use atrocities.

	31-03-2004 10:30									#4
	Tired of ads?

If you don't have infiltration you can always get some info by flying a plane up to their base and peak inside-- disband it if need be ( to keep the peace and hide your spying)

Personally I am a big believer in -pre-emptive war-- I never want a human to have PBs in range of my core if I can avoid it and nerve gas choppers are a provocation. I find that the key is being able to establish some defensive depth to your empire but thats not always easy

	31-03-2004 13:15									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Who cares about intelligence? It's more fun to just attack and make up the reason afterwards.

	31-03-2004 13:20									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Why not use a probe to mindcontrol a base with a PB in, and use it to destroy his core bases ?

-Jam

	01-04-2004 00:33									#7
	Put an end to popups!

Read Machiavelli. He'll tell you, and I'll agree, that you gain nothing by putting off a winable war. If you can't win, then delay, but as soon as you can win, start conquering.

	01-04-2004 04:56									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Cool, thanks for the input everyone. Yeah, I'd say that strategy of Machiavelli is a good idea. Ideally, you wouldn't let a player get to that point, but sometimes you can't take everyone out at once, and you have to bide your time and try to pick them off one by one so as to not spread yourself too thin. But if I had an agressive neighbor who was building hordes of nerve gas choppers and such, I think I'd have to redirect my efforts to that player first.

Mind controlling a base with a PB, and then using it on them, oooooh, that would be sweet!!!

	01-04-2004 05:09									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

I don't know if that would happen because I would probably be the guy building up the army. But to be serious....

.....heck yes I would do a pre-emptive attack. If I had the units to get some of his bases, I would definitely attack, if not then I would do the same thing that Skanky said...stall.

This reminds me of one game I had. My friend was Santiago and was sending a rover my way early in the game. I spammed out about 5 scout units and before he could attack, I did. He said he wasn't going to attack me....but come on. If you have a chance on getting rid of a rival early in the game, wouldn't YOU take it?

	01-04-2004 05:16									#10
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Mind controlling a base with a PB, and then using it on them, oooooh, that would be sweet!!!

... But costly. I never tried it, but I can imagine that PB's are most expensive...

	01-04-2004 05:30									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

Get a good probe rating, and go against some weak fools running Knowledge with its poor rating - even better against Uni running Knowledge, and I imagine it gets quite affordable

-Jam

	01-04-2004 05:40									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

Better yet, just build a planet buster and nuke the base where the military build up is taking place. That way you get rid of the opposing force, and buy yourself time to make more units.

	01-04-2004 08:32									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Or, you could play an annoying faction, like the Cult, Angels, and Pirates, build bases very far away and very far apart. Annoy the person so much that they will be sorry they ever used atrocities. There are more peaceful ways to get on people's nerves. My first, and strangely, my only multiplayer game I have ever played I did that. I played as the Gaians, set my bases very far apart. Even though everyone was much better than I was, I just kept building sea escape pods, and just kept on moving. No one could catch me. A lot of bases got conquered by my locust of chiron. Of course, to be really annoying, I conquered bases with Secret Projects and then obliterated them. Actually that was the only game I have ever used atrocities. Too bad that it had to be with other human players. They were really mad. I would have loved to see the look on their face. And that was when I got erradicated on Specialist level.

	01-04-2004 08:35									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron Read Machiavelli. He'll tell you, and I'll agree, that you gain nothing by putting off a winable war. If you can't win, then delay, but as soon as you can win, start conquering.

Machiavelli (and CEO Aaron) are correct. War doesn''t neccessarily mean having your tanks roll over his perimeter defences though; probe operations can and should be used in any operational planning.