31-03-2004 09:18									#1
	Airlifting Armies Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Is it just me, or can you not airlift armies? I find this rather irritating, though I can understand it's purpose from a balance perspective.

What's your opinion on armies-should they be airlift-able?

I vote yes, simply because it seems to me that if I can airlift an unlimited amount of modern armor, mechanized infantry, and radar artillery into a town in one turn, then a single swordsman army shouldn't present a problem.

I don't think it would unbalance the game, as armies are either sparse (it wouldn't matter) or so common that you are already UP and the airlifting is more a convenience than anything else.

	31-03-2004 09:59									#2
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It's not just you. You can't airlift Armies.

I know it can be a pain, but that's life. Use Transports. Also note, since the AI is useless at making/using Armies, such a change would only benefit the human player more.

	31-03-2004 11:09									#3
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No I do not think they should be air lifted. You cannot move an army in real life that way, that is why it takes months to build up to the wars with Iraq. It takes many planes to get the stuff shiped.

	01-04-2004 04:26									#4
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I agree with vmxa1, in real life armies can't be airlifted en masse and shouldn't be in Civ3 either. In Gulf War I and II, while some army supplies and equipment were airlifted, the heavy fighting equipment of the army was shipped in by sealift ships.

In World War II, D-Day, the armies were shipped across the 100-mile English Channel, not airlifted. Paratroopers were used on a grand scale at D-Day to disrupt rear supply lines, but the primary striking force came by ship. (In Civ3 paratroopers have the same (useful, and often overlooked) role.)

	04-04-2004 14:12									#5
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Paratroopers are kinda weak though. I tried using them in a world war style conflict, but they got thoughly owned. I had more luck using my marines after they were ashore.

And with armies, what I do is build several, and place them stratigicly across the map near hotspots (usually at sea, with a aircraft carrier for heavy bombardment, and a transport full of marines to take a city so the army can be used as soon as possible, instead of waiting a turn in open land.)

Thats sorta what the military does today. The Marine Corps (and the US Army is starting to do this, and may have used it in the Iraq War) has three fleets of supplies for a entire divsion to fight a war for three months. So try to preposition troops at sea.

	04-04-2004 15:33									#6
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With C3C 1.15Beta I was surprised to be given the option of loading a 2-unit Army into a helicopter!

	04-04-2004 23:47									#7
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In the unmodded game, you can't airlift Radar Arty (nor normal Arty). I find that noticeably more strange than the inability to airlift Armies.

	05-04-2004 02:25									#8
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No arties either. I think it is a balance issue, but I don't really understand it.

	06-04-2004 02:44									#9
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re Arty: I don't think that the big guns can be carried by C-17 or C-5. They go in the ships with the Armor and other heavy equipment. Mere cannon should be airliftable, and of course trebs would be built on the spot; you're transporting the artillerists.

	06-04-2004 06:00									#10
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Well I can sort of agree, but some of the lessor pieces are no bigger than an MA.

	07-04-2004 07:57									#11
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Very true, but I don't think the smaller pieces have the devastating power we have come to know and love.

	07-04-2004 15:52									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Melon Head then a single swordsman army shouldn't present a problem.

Sharp objects are not allowed in the cabin luggage, so they would have to leave the swords at home.

What irritates me more is that you can't airlift workers. And I don't think you can airlift cruise missiles or tactical nukes either.

	07-04-2004 15:55									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe With C3C 1.15Beta I was surprised to be given the option of loading a 2-unit Army into a helicopter!

Well thanks, that idea was new to me. Imagine what an TOW army could do, especially if you airlift the other 2 units with another chopper then load them.

	07-04-2004 17:58									#14
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So we can load an Army into a 'copter, but not into transport aircraft? Makes sense, eh?

Well, at least it means you can de-facto airlift the Army by rebasing the 'copter.

	07-04-2004 18:52									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist So we can load an Army into a 'copter, but not into transport aircraft? Makes sense, eh? Well, at least it means you can de-facto airlift the Army by rebasing the 'copter.

Yes, an unloaded army or loaded with 1-2 foot infantry then. Good idea to use after establishing a bridgehead town for intercontinental invasions.

	07-04-2004 19:15									#16
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so effectively an airlift is a transport with capicaty of 1 which can go anywhere(that has airport).

a helicopter is a transport with capicity of 3 (thus can carry 2 man army) and range of (10 is it?)

thought that only really means that u can carry over newly created armies, as ur long established armies will definately be atleast 3 units strong.

but u should (imo) be able to airlift a unfilled army. as its equivelent to 1 unit

	10-04-2004 18:02									#17
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Thought you would like to know that the C-5 Galaxy can airlift a company of Abrams Tanks...I think that's roughly 5 tanks. Hardly a full unit for C3C purposes but you get the picture...Does one airlift equate one plane? Don't think so, so you should be able to airlift an Army of MA, especially, given that one turn is a year or longer.

IMHO

	10-04-2004 23:09									#18
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C-5's and C-141's can also airlift lots of artillery pieces.

The rules must be the way they are for game balance purposes.

	11-04-2004 10:04									#19
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By what I can figure, a airlift in the game isn't the use of one plane, but the use of all planes at the airport, which would be a very good explanation on why a airport can only do one airlift a turn, because all the planes are at the other airport.

	11-04-2004 17:12									#20
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Probably has more to do with the AI's inability to properly mobilize, and it's inability to use Armies...I wonder if both could be corrected in a Mod....Antrine?

	12-04-2004 01:08									#21
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I tried to load an empty army into an helicopter, but it didn't work. Then I loaded 1 and 2 TOW infantry, and suddenly the helicopter accepted it. Seems like a bug exploit to me. But then an AI jet fighter splashed it when I tried an air inseration. Perhaps it's a trap set by the AI?

This was under AU rules, but I think it's the same under C3C 1.15 and 1.22.

	12-04-2004 04:50									#22
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You can put an army with one or two TOW's in it into a 'copter? That sounds like a bug - an army with one unit in it should take up two slots

	13-04-2004 18:13									#23
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Chemical, you were bamboozled!!!

That definitely sounds like an exploit...

	13-04-2004 22:06									#24
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Kucinich, in C3C a helicopter has a carrying capacity of THREE foot units.

	14-04-2004 04:07									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie I tried to load an empty army into an helicopter, but it didn't work. Then I loaded 1 and 2 TOW infantry, and suddenly the helicopter accepted it. Seems like a bug exploit to me. But then an AI jet fighter splashed it when I tried an air inseration. Perhaps it's a trap set by the AI? This was under AU rules, but I think it's the same under C3C 1.15 and 1.22.

First time I've seen this claim. Can anyone verify? Is there a save Ollie?

	14-04-2004 19:38									#26
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Maybe this isn't a bug, but a forced work around that the programmers had to compromise to? Perhaps an empty army is one foot unit, since an empty army is counted as a military unit when calculating the support costs, and when moving, etc...However, the Army also has the ability to load units. This could cause a conflict with the helicopter's loading capability, which the game designers may not have been able to avoid without jeopardizing other aspects of the game?

For example, let's say you had an empty army in an empty helicopter, then moved units onto the helicopter and pressed "L" to load them into the helicopter. How would the game know you wanted to load them into the helicopter and not into the empty army???

However, your method worked, because there wasn't an issue anymore. Simply put, by loading two units into the chopper first, then the empty army (also viewed as a foot unit) the chopper was full and would no longer have the afore mentioned hang-up.

I would like to here from someone who has the time to experiment with this.

Does this only work if you put two units in first? Could you put an army loaded with two units into the helicopter? Can you unload units from the army prior to unloading the army from the helicopter? Can you put the empty army in second and then a third unit into the helicopter?

My guess is that you can only load empty armies, and that you can only load them in as the third unit.

If so, then this isn't an exploit really, just the best compromise the programmers could make. After all, what is an empty army but a few dozen high ranking officers and their staff?

JMHO

	15-04-2004 06:19									#27
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quote: Originally posted by WarriorPoet For example, let's say you had an empty army in an empty helicopter, then moved units onto the helicopter and pressed "L" to load them into the helicopter. How would the game know you wanted to load them into the helicopter and not into the empty army???

I haven't experimented with Helicopters at all, but when you try to load a unit into an Army in a coastal city that also has a transport type ship, you will be asked to specify whether you want to load the unit into the Army or the ship. Seems to me this is a similar situation, so I would guess there is another reason for the phenomenon that CO experienced.

	16-04-2004 12:00									#28
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Personally, what I have done to make sure that I do not load a unit into an army when I do not intend to, is:
Move the army out of the city (on a rail) while I load the unit into a helicopter or transport.

My main problem is when I have multiple things of the same type I can load into with the same number of vacancies, and some of them have moved already. With transports or helos, you can unload them and reload into another without penalty, so it may be time-consuming but the job gets done. Of course, with armies there is no unloading if a mistake is made.

	16-04-2004 19:25									#29
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Armies consisting of identical units take the properties of those units. For example, Marine Armies are amphibious, even though empty armies are not. Similarly, TOW Armies are foot units, even though empty Armies are not.

So since only foot units can load into helicopters, you can load a TOW Army, but not an empty one.

	16-04-2004 19:33									#30
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Interesting. I bet many have never tried either way.